Starter Motor: RPM to Start Engine

Hello,

The following problem:
ARL engine installed in an Audi 80 Cabrio (previously had a 1Z/AHU engine).
The transmission and starter were included in the purchase.

The engine won't start, and I think the problem is because...
The starter motor is rotating too slowly.

Regarding the diagnosis, the maximum speed is 180 revolutions.
retrieved (from VAG-Scope)

Somewhere, as far as I can remember, I read something about that.
The system only initiates the "go" signal for startup after 200 revolutions.
I've already been searching the forum for an hour, but I can't find it anymore.

According to the parts catalog, the starter motor for the ARL model has a power rating of 2 kW.
and the built-in 1.4 kW power, which is actually a 30% difference .


It would be great if you could let me know if...
Am I correct with my assumption, and from what point onwards?
He would then start at that speed.


Best regards, Franz.

The transmission, including the starter, has been taken over.

The engine won't start, and I think the problem is because...
The starter motor is rotating too slowly.

Regarding the diagnosis, the maximum speed is 180 revolutions.
retrieved (from VAG-Scope)

(..)

According to the parts catalog, the starter motor for the ARL model has a power rating of 2 kW.
and the built-in 1.4 kW power, which is actually a 30% difference .


Hello Franz,

You've probably already figured out the reason why the engine isn't starting:
The starter motor is not spinning fast enough: 180 rpm is simply too slow.

You now have a PD (positive displacement) instead of a VP (variable valve placement). Since this motor has to drive the PD components, for example, the timing belt is noticeably more difficult to turn.
One reason why the ZR was oversized in the PD design.

For this reason, the starter motor also needs to have more power (2 kW compared to 1.4 kW).

I'm thinking of a starting speed of over 350 rpm; from this point, the MSG (presumably a control module) attempts to activate the engine. This doesn't necessarily have to be for PD (presumably a specific engine mode), as I've observed it in conjunction with CR (another engine mode). But 180 rpm is definitely too low.

Best regards, Jochen.

The engine cut-off threshold is even higher...

yellow5 wrote:

The engine won't start, and I think the problem is that the starter motor is turning too slowly. Through diagnosis, I read a maximum speed of 180 revolutions (using VAG-Scope)

.
Hi,

If you have VAGCOM, try logging control module byte 5 (MWB 5) while the engine is idling: you'll see the amount of fuel being injected and whether it's within the correct range.

AFAIK, the software allows fuel injection to start at significantly below 180 rpm when the engine is cold. However, whether the compression heat is sufficient for ignition in that case is another question. -> Have you tried manually pre-heating the engine (as a DIY experiment)?

Quote:

AFAIK, the software allows fuel injection at speeds significantly below 180 rpm when the engine is cold.

It would be interesting to see if the engine (excluding the starter) is actually running, or if there are other errors involved.

Maybe we should just get a few people to push the car and see what happens.

Hello,

Thank you very much for the answers!

I only have two errors left in the wiring (which are also displayed in the memory).
But because of them, it would also have to start.


-Once, the electronic throttle sensor showed a reading of 0, which suggests that the resistance values do not match the original.
-and once, I wired the brake light switch incorrectly.

Here are the stored errors:

16955 - Brake light switch - Implausible signal.
P0571 - 35-00 - -
18047 - Implausible signal from accelerator pedal position sensor (G79) + G185.
P1639 - 35-00 - -
18044 - Data bus fault: No message received from the airbag control unit.
P1636 - 35-00 - -
65280 - Development code 1.
35-00 - -
65280 - Development code 1.
35-00 - -
17068 - Glow plug control unit 1 (J179), implausible signal.
P0684 - 35-00 - -


What seems more strange to me is the error related to the glow plug control unit.
The engine is from the year 2001 and doesn't have a preheating control unit, as discussed in this forum.
I read that it's only used from model year 2003 onwards.

I'm already worried that they might try to sell me a control unit.
given it a more recent build date.
Part number is 038 906 019 KG.

I got a starter motor today from a 130PS PD engine.
It has a power output of 1.8 kW. I'm going to install it today and see what happens.


Best regards, Franz.

yellow5 wrote:

What seems more strange to me is the error with the glow plug control unit. The engine is from the year 2001 and doesn't have a preheating control unit, as discussed in this forum. I read that it's only used from model year 2003 onwards. I'm already worried that they might try to sell me a control unit. given it a more recent build date. Part number would be 038 906 019 KG

.
Yes, the 019KG wants to communicate with a glow plug control unit instead of directly controlling a simple glow plug relay. But the engine is still running, and at least it's already an ARL-MSG .
Is there a production month listed somewhere on the MSG label?

I received the engine control unit without any labels.
The number is only marked with a permanent marker, and that's also how it's displayed in the software.

Report back later to let me know if the new starter works.

038 906 019 KG
As far as I know, the Keyless Go (KG) control unit was installed in the ARL Leon from model year 2004 onwards; before that, the standard key system (HK) was used.

Congratulations on the Seat-brain in the Audi .

For vehicles manufactured in 2001, you should have a 'Freikarte' (free card).

Hi.

"When did they start installing a glow plug control unit? I thought that was only for the Golf 5 TDI?"

According to several sources, there have been few changes in the ARL model across different production years, except for the addition of particulate filter (PD) elements and a more durable loader identified by the "G" at the end of the part number. Starting in 2003, the exhaust warning light was added due to OBD 2 regulations, which is essentially just a matter of the engine control unit.

I installed an FE control unit in my ARL.

Controller: 038 906 019 FE
Component: 1.9L R4 EDC G000SG 1468
Coding: 00003

Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"MFG" is an abbreviation for "Mit freundlichen Grüßen," which means "Sincerely" or "Best regards" in English.

'There have been some changes; from 2002 onwards, the ARL and ASZ components were the same. The ARL components produced before that year share part numbers with many other parts.'

I installed an FE control unit in my ARL.
You have a Golf, not a Leon - this particular message never appeared in the Leon.

Hi.

Okay, so how can you identify the changes? Mine is from 01/2002.

Is the "other motor" recognizable on the new engine cover, which now only has a completely silver logo on the front? I'm really curious about the differences, especially why these changes were made. I knew that there were changes to the PD elements and the turbocharger, but what else?

Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"MFG" is an abbreviation for "Mit freundlichen Grüßen," which means "Sincerely" or "Best regards" in English.

Hello,

I've now got a better starter motor installed.
but unfortunately, only the one with 130 horsepower and 1.8 kW.

I'm currently getting around 210 revolutions.
From an acoustic perspective, I would say it sounds normal.

Well, unfortunately, it still won't turn on.

VAG COM either displays something to me, or it doesn't.
it has been injected with something.
While the organ is playing, there is no change in the fuel injection amount.

Here are two screenshots showing some measurement values taken during standstill.
The only thing that changes when you adjust the organ's stops is the speed.
Many of the values here are not within the range indicated in parentheses.
You might spot an error here.

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yellow5 wrote:

With VAG COM, it shows me something, or it doesn't show me anything. it has been injected with something. While the organ is playing, there is no change in the fuel injection amount. Here are two screenshots showing some measurement values taken during standstill. The only thing that changes when you adjust the organ's stops is the speed. Many of the values here are not within the range indicated in parentheses. Perhaps you will recognize an error here.

I'm not sure if anything should be displayed during the organ playing. I suspect, however, that these MWB (presumably a technical term) are largely useless when there are starting problems.

As I mentioned before: for the initial start, MWB 5 is essential (once it starts, the initial amount is "locked in"). So, let it run while you play the organ!

Ah, yes, you already mentioned that above, I somehow missed it.
I'll do it this week, but unfortunately, the car is 30km away.

Thank you very much.

Now that I'm reading that the starter motor for the ASZ engine is supposed to be different from the one for the ARL engine, I'm wondering why. The gearboxes used are the same, and the ARL has a slightly lower compression ratio (if at all), so are you sure there are differences?
I still believe you should address the wiring issues first. Problems with the brake light switch have already had interesting consequences. Also, the issue with the electronic gas (throttle) isn't really ideal. I can't say anything about the starter motor speed, as I've never logged that data. Just from experience: even when gently accelerating, a partially engaged clutch at, say, 10 km/h in third gear will immediately cause the engine to rev... there aren't really more revolutions available.

Hello,

Here's a scope image of Block 5 during startup:

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