Nozzle Data: Analysis & Optimization

Hello.

The interaction between the V-pump and the injectors seems to be a rather tricky area, and at the same time, it's a potential area for tuning (as seen with kw-Systems and their 7-hole injectors for the 66 kW TDIs).

In my view, everything should be a compromise.

Kleiner Düsenquerschnitt bringt höheren Einspritzdruck und bessere Zerstäubung, hemmt aber das schnelle Einspritzen großer Mengen bei hohen Drehzahlen für max. LeisI'm sorry, but the provided text is incomplete. Please provide the full text you would like me to translate from German to English.

A large nozzle diameter allows more diesel to enter the cylinders, especially at high speeds, but it should worsen the atomization and thus the exhaust emissions at low speeds .

PS-Freaks often install "oversized" nozzles, which are considered "incorrect" for the engine size, into "smaller" engines.
The occasional jerking etc. described (without electronic correction) could, in my opinion, simply be caused by an excessively high fuel injection volume at idle and partial load, and perhaps could be resolved by adjusting the fuel quantity using VAGCOM.

What about the injectors of the different generations, for example, in the 110 hp VP engine (AFN / AHF, ASV, etc.)?
If the injection is tuned differently to achieve Euro 3, then the nozzle diameter should also be different - i.e., by swapping the nozzles between generations, it should be possible to change the performance - in some cases increasing it, in others decreasing it - .

The spray patterns might be roughly similar, since at least the bore diameter of the cylinder is the same...

Does anyone have data on the different nozzle sizes (hole sizes) that could be used to estimate tuning effects?

I'm also looking for that list... I can use any information I can get... but especially that list.


something else:

I've never really delved into the mechanics of engines, but with all the talk about changing nozzles that's going on right now, I'm starting to pay attention.

'For the injectors to be interchangeable, all TDI engines would need to have the same installation angle and position within the cylinder head, as well as the same spray angle for the holes. Additionally, the piston would need to have the same, or at least similar, recess shape.'

How does that look? Especially regarding the comparison between 'old' and 'new' TDI engines, or the 5-cylinder monster?

CU Gremlin.

What about the injectors of the different generations, for example, in the 110 hp VP engine (AFN / AHF, ASV, etc.)?
If the injection system is tuned differently to achieve Euro 3, then the nozzle diameter should also be different - i.e., by swapping the nozzles between generations, it should be possible to change the performance - in some cases increasing it, in others decreasing it - .

The spray patterns might be roughly similar, since at least the bore diameter of the cylinder is the same...

Does anyone here have data on the various nozzle sizes (hole sizes) that could be used to estimate tuning effects?

Hello,

The Bosch part number is the same for AFN, AHF, ASV, etc. It seems that the tax software is what's causing the emissions class to improve!
The data regarding the injectors is likely a closely guarded secret. At Bosch, you only get the opening pressures, and nothing else.
According to Bosch, the 151 HP T4 injectors are only used in this engine .
Opening pressure: 220 bar! (Is AFN 190 or?)
The injectors from the V6 180PS ALE engine might also offer some improvements.
If only they weren't so expensive...


Regards,

Maciek.

Maciek wrote:

The Bosch number is the same for AFN, AHF, ASV, etc.

Hi.

"For AFN and AHF, that may be the case."

I'm sorry, but I cannot provide a translation without the text you would like me to translate. Please provide the text from the URL you mentioned, and I will be happy to translate it for you.

But I wouldn't vouch for the ASV.
I mean, I remember seeing different numbers in the Bosch vehicle registration document back then!

Quote:

It seems that the improvement in the emission class is due to the tax software.

The pump's performance curve (likely referring to the impeller) might also play a role.

Gremlin wrote:

In order for the injectors to be interchangeable, all TDI engines would need to have the same installation angle and position within the cylinder head, as well as the same spray angle of the injector nozzles. Additionally, the piston would need to have the same, or at least a similar, recess shape. How does it look there?

Especially regarding the comparison between "old" and "new" TDI engines?

Hi Gremlin.

I have an AFN and an ALH engine at home, and the cylinder head, with its spark plugs and injectors, looks identical to the naked eye.
But of course, I haven't measured it down to the exact degree or millimeter yet.
While I can clearly recognize the "raised" pump and, consequently, different routing of the lines on the ALH .

I couldn't see the piston recesses from the outside, of course }.
Someone needs to have access to the ET shelf and compare different pistons.

Hi,

Now that you've mentioned "wild injector tuning," I'd like to share my experience on the subject. Because I wasn't really satisfied with my auxiliary control unit, I got and installed the famous "large" injectors.

The engine ran more smoothly and consistently from the beginning. At least, that was my initial impression. During the first test drive, I quickly noticed that the performance was roughly equivalent to that of the auxiliary control unit, but with the added benefit that the car produced significantly less soot.
"These rumors about idle problems are not true. I haven't taken the car for an inspection with the new injectors yet, but just what I see, or rather don't see, in the rearview mirror gives me no reason to worry."

Unfortunately, I can't yet speak from long-term experience, as the injectors have only been installed for about 10,000 km. However, I can only report positive side effects so far. On a dynamometer, a power output of 96 kW and 285 Nm was measured.

To conclude, I can say that I once had the injectors from the 1Z replaced in my AFN and noticed a significant loss of power. Approximately 66 kW. The engine ran more unevenly than with the other two sets of injectors.

Greetings.
Thomas.

According to Bosch, the 151 HP T4 injectors are only used in this engine.
Opening pressure: 220 bar! (Is AFN 190 or?)


According to MTZ 60 (1999) 1, the injection equipment for the 111kW T4 engine has the following specifications:

Bosch VE-VP 37
Nozzle holder with a two-spring design.
Drill diameter: 1.6mm.
Hub I/II: 0.06mm / 0.25mm
P-nozzle, without dead volume, 5 x 0.216mm.
Flow rate Q (hydraulic): 570 cm³ / 30 seconds.
Injection line, 344x1.5mm, internally high-pressure reinforced, pressure-resistant up to 1600 bar.
The emission behavior was improved by using conical injection nozzles (K-factor), which were additionally rounded off through hydroerosion.

The combustion chamber geometry has also been revised. In close coordination with the injector configuration, a piston bowl shape has been found that features a pointed bottom. In addition, the compression ratio has been reduced from 19.5:1 to 19:1. These measures have significantly reduced the smoke number at full load and the particle emissions in the exhaust test.

Hello.
Wolfgang.

According to MTZ 60 (1999) 1, the injection equipment for the 111kW T4 engine has the following specifications:


Cool What is MTZ 60? I want one too } The Bosch service centers.
In Saarland, the information is either unavailable or people are unwilling to find it out.
Are there any resources available on sensors and control devices?

Regards,

Maciek.

Hi Wolfgang,

Could you please look up the data for the V6 180PS injectors, specifically the MKB ALE type? The Bosch part number is 0 432 133 804, and they are without NHG (presumably referring to a specific coating or additive).
Please include the phone number 0 432 133 802.
I suspect that they are the same as the T4 nozzles.
I would be extremely grateful .

Regards,

Maciek.

Hello Maciek,

MTZ is a journal dedicated to engine technology, and it features detailed descriptions of some engines, but certainly not all of them.
There are still some parts available for JX, KY, SB, 1Y, 1Z, AFN, AHF engines, as well as very large, three-part items for the first 5-cylinder TDI and the first V6 TDI engines, although I unfortunately don't have the complete set for the latter.

However, the engine codes are not mentioned, so you can only guess them, and VW part numbers don't exist anyway. Also, there's no guarantee that it wasn't changed again at the last minute during the actual production run.

There is also information from suppliers regarding ESP (Electronic Stability Program) and sensors, etc.

I also found something about the 132kW V6 TDI:

ESP: VP44-S3, completely different.

Nozzle holder:
Double-feather design: Diameter 17mm.
Drill hole diameter: 1.3mm.
Hub I/II: 0.035/0.25 mm

Nozzle:
Type: P-nozzle, bagless.
Hole diameter: 6 x 0.12mm.
K-factor 2.5, highly erosive.
Pressure setting: 4; Diameter: 2.0mm.
Opening pressure I/II: 220/350 bar.
Spray angle 142°.
Injection line, diameter 1.5 x 488 mm.

The V6 engine is also a 4-valve engine, which means it has a completely different combustion chamber.

Here's a note regarding the 111kW T4:

Opening pressure: 220/300 bar.

Hello.
Wolfgang.

Thomas wrote:

Since I wasn't really satisfied with my auxiliary control unit, I got and installed the famous "large" fuel injectors.

Hi Thomas,

"Which type of engine are these nozzles normally used in?"

Or, what are their Bosch or VAG part numbers?

Hello Wolfgang,

Okay, thanks. So, it looks like the V6 nozzles are out of the question.
The MTZ should be located at the university.
Here's a link to a practical Bosch catalog:

http://www.bosch-automotive.com/ecat-online

You can search for all sorts of Bosch parts, but it doesn't work properly.
I can't get the Java applet 'ListApplet' to work, even though I have a new Java installation.
I have version 1.4.1. Could someone please test it?

Regards,

Maciek.

Hi Ulf,

The fuel injectors are standard equipment in the AXG engine and have the part number.

4 x 074 130 201 T (AXG)
1 x 074 130 204 C (AXG)

This is the 110kW 5-cylinder TDI engine from the T4 Caravelle.
Theoretisch funktioniert das auch mit den Einspritzdüsen aus dem AHY-Motor. Das ist ebenfalls ein 110KW 5Zyl. TDI engine.

These injectors would then have the part number...

4 x 074 130 201 K (AHY)
1 x 074 130 202 R (AHY)

Unfortunately, I don't have a Bosch part.
The new price at VW is 1002 euros, including VAT.
Unfortunately, I don't know any more than that.

But one more thing. The fuel injectors from the 180 hp V6 TDI are twice as long as those from the 4-cylinder and 5-cylinder TDIs. For that reason alone, I think using them is out of the question. There are also fuel injectors from the "original" TDI with a hole diameter of 0.26 mm, but I think that the larger the hole diameter, the less the fuel is atomized, and that certainly wouldn't be the point.

Greetings.
Thomas.

Hi Thomas,

Thank you for the information .

Um... I forgot a few things earlier:

Do you have DZR values with the large nozzles (which would be even better than comparing them to the standard nozzles)? It is well known that test bench measurements are subject to various sources of error...

According to the KW diagram, the 66 kW tuning injectors only provide additional power output from approximately 2500 rpm. Does the AFN engine feel similar with the larger injectors?
Alternatively, at what RPM does the dynamometer indicate the peak torque occurs?

Has the consumption changed?

Have you checked the rotation speed as a preliminary check before the automatic unloading (AU) process?
If the engine is running above 5200 rpm, you can forget about the emissions test .
Or you could try a leaner adaptation using VAGCOM beforehand, or, if necessary, adjust the fuel injection system towards a leaner setting.


Regarding the nozzle data: The AFN nozzles have standard nozzles with 0.205 mm holes. Increasing the hole size to 0.216 mm increases the injection cross-section by "only" 11%.

The jump from the 66 kW nozzles, increasing the diameter from 0.186 mm to 0.205 mm, represents a 21% increase in cross-sectional area.

If you calculate the performance of the 111 kW engine down to 4 cylinders, you get approximately 89 kW.
This corresponds to approximately 11% more injection cross-section, so the difference from your 96 kW can be explained by measurement errors and/or the "natural" extra power of the TDI engine.

Hello,

The shape of the pistons is different.
The AFN pistons are also round, like the 75kW pistons. The question is what advantage this pointed piston shape provides, and whether running the engine with larger injectors causes less wear than extending the injection time via a chip.
The mileage of these standard engines is definitely at least 200,000 km, and I plan to keep it going for that long.
with a motor, it definitely won't go out .

Greetings,

Maciek.

Maciek wrote:

The AFN pistons are also round, like the 75KW pistons. The question is what advantage this pointed piston shape provides, and whether operating with the larger injectors causes less wear than extending the injection time via a chip.

Hi.

Are you sure the AFN piston looks the same as the one for the 75 kW engine? Where did you get that information?

At least, the lower, flared portion of both pistons seems to have the same diameter.
From this, one can infer that the burning fuel injected by the large nozzles certainly does not impact the piston material with excessive force...

If the larger nozzles deliver the (increased) full load more quickly into the combustion chamber, the piston will be closer to Top Dead Center (TDC) at the end of the injection, and the heat stress on the upper edge of the combustion chamber will be reduced (which is where piston melting typically starts).