Nonsense: Why Everything Makes Less Sense | Posts 32+

Hi everyone,

Sorry, but all of this is utter nonsense.

1. For the performance of a car battery, it's not the capacity that matters (see the discussion here about ultracapacitors), but primarily the starting current.
Car batteries fail due to various factors.

Of that.
A: Charge/discharge cycles - as mentioned before, these are not cycle-stable and become unusable after approximately 30 cycles. Cause: The gases produced create cracks in the plates, the active material is electrically separated from the electrode, or the connection becomes highly resistive, resulting in reduced capacity and insufficient starting current, leading to increased internal resistance and irreversible damage.

B: Sulfation: The lead sulfate crystals bloom and become unavailable as an active material, causing irreversible damage. While the acid loss (which should not be confused with water loss) can sometimes be compensated for, in the past, people would sometimes try to revive old batteries by increasing the acid concentration (although only temporarily).
Here, we are specifically talking about crumbs that fall out of the plates due to gas evolution.
The sulfate crystals that precipitate due to aging fall to the bottom and eventually cause a short circuit in the cell, leading to failure. Therefore, you rarely see any of this material at the top of the battery. A battery with a high degree of sulfation has a lower acid content.

Therefore, every lead-acid battery has a certain amount of free space below the plates, at least 1 cm, to allow for the accumulation of sulfate crystals before a short circuit occurs.

What do these circuits do?

Here's a simple explanation: Lead-acid buffer batteries that are not used for long periods (e.g., UPS systems for weeks/months) develop surface sulfation, which passivates the plates and is reversible. This can be easily resolved by removing a small amount of electrolyte and replacing it. Even a 1/20 C alternating current for 30 minutes (e.g., 2A for a 40AH battery) is sufficient for this.

This never happens with car batteries because the starting process does not create this effect.

Control electronics for such systems often include this feature, which is probably the idea behind these refresher courses – but, as mentioned above, this is NONSENSE in this particular case.

(Just a note: It's different with NiCd/NiMH batteries.)

Someone mentioned that they wanted to use a lead-acid battery.
Forget that. The charging system in a car isn't designed for that. Lead-acid batteries are relatively insensitive to slight gassing because, internally, cells contain a platinum mesh that recombines the gas mixture into water. This prevents water loss, and the gas bubbles can rise freely within the electrolyte. (Unless the battery is overcharged to the point where the plates crack, as mentioned above.)

'With lead-gel batteries, the gel is pressed into the plates during manufacturing. However, when charging, the pressure forces the gel out, and the battery is ruined. This means it won't last long. Sell it on E**y and use the money to buy a car battery.'

I hope I managed to convey that somewhat.

Well, sulfation particularly occurs in starter batteries that are subjected to cyclic charging and discharging.
Whether it's through the exhaust pipe, the engine compartment, or using a heater, etc.

Usually, the subsequent drive is nowhere near enough to even partially compensate for the energy used for charging. For the rest of the day (22 hours), the battery will then be partially discharged.
(Varta appropriately calls them 'supermarket, kindergarten, post office, and round-trip cars').

The pulse detector has proven to be helpful in this case.
The battery can only deliver high currents if the entire surface area is active.
The resulting high capacity is merely a secondary aspect in this case...
By the way, our workshop battery lasts significantly longer than 30 cycles...


Lead-acid batteries are used in many current motorcycles, and they work very well. I've had one in my Deauville since 1999.
Lead-acid batteries cannot handle high currents, which makes them unsuitable for use in cars. Like open batteries, lead-acid batteries are charged with a constant voltage (although it's important to pay attention to the current when using proper chargers).
You can easily get that 600cc engine started with that.

CU Gremlin.

btw: the anti-scale magnets aren't working either. Thankfully, the magnets themselves don't know that. My kettle, however, has a different opinion than the general public .

Hi gremlin,

Regarding lead-acid batteries: If the charger is designed for it, it will work, but it usually isn't designed for car batteries. The charging voltage can sometimes reach 14.7 volts or more, which isn't ideal for lead-acid batteries, but it can be okay for lead-gel batteries. If the charging electronics include a gassing control (like in solar charge controllers), then it's suitable.
(Lead-acid batteries: maximum continuous voltage 13.8V, maximum charging voltage 14.4V. ! Some manufacturers allow values up to 15V for a short period for fast charging, but only briefly and under controlled conditions. The charging process then resembles that of a Li-ion battery with a constant current/constant voltage (CI/CV) method.)

I still believe that when it comes to sulfates, a distinction must be made between surface-related issues and material that falls out of the plates. There's nothing that can be done about the latter.

Surface sulfation should not occur in a vehicle, unless, as you described, the battery is not charged properly. Normally, even short trips are sufficient to prevent this, because the voltage in a normal car can rise to levels that damage gel batteries.

Just for consideration: Modern cars have idle currents that are higher than those of refreshers.


Regarding battery cycles: I know some model builders who no longer subject their car batteries to heavy use for charging their electric planes. Instead, they buy car batteries with a 5-year warranty and replace them annually. (Pay once and use for 5 years.) The lifespan increases dramatically with a lower depth of discharge, but the effect remains.
Whether it's 30 or even 50 cycles, does that really matter?

I still believe that when it comes to sulfates, a distinction must be made between surface-related issues and material that falls out of the plates. There's nothing that can be done about the latter.

falling mass is not sulfation .


Regarding battery cycles: I know some model builders who no longer subject their car batteries to heavy use to charge their electric planes. Instead, they buy car batteries with a 5-year warranty and replace them annually. (Pay once and use for 5 years.) The lifespan increases dramatically with a lower depth of discharge, but the effect remains.
Whether it's 30 cycles or even 50, it's not really important, is it?

Hmm... the old battery has already seen quite a few more.

btw: what kind of model builders do you know? The ones I know either use a solar battery or an optima. It saves time and nerves .

CU Gremlin.

Hi Gremlin,

The downside of using a solar battery is that they are much more expensive, and they also don't last longer than 5 years.

I still have two of those models myself that I occasionally fly.
However, I simply let the engine run as soon as I've drawn more than 10Ah. According to Vag-Com, that's about 0.6-0.8 liters per hour, and about 20 minutes is enough to provide power for 2 more flights.

'But the helicopter pilots are using car batteries, which are drained after 3-4 flights. Each charge takes 30 minutes at 20 amps (for a battery pack of 30 cells or more).'


'The loss of mass is not due to sulfation.'
Right, but this stuff is usually heavily sulfated, as you can see from the crumbs.

What is an Optima?

Hi,
Optima is a brand of English-language gel batteries that come in several types (yellow, red, etc.) for various applications.
Among other things, it can also be used as a starter battery.
I was once recommended something like that as a solution for my power-hungry standing heater.
The website does not state whether and how the issue of gas buildup was resolved. However, the cold start flow rates are very high.
I don't have a battery like that myself.

I took a look at them, and they also have the distinction between the Starter (Red) and Cycle (Yellow) versions.

The electrolyte is specified as sulfuric acid. There is no mention that they are gel batteries; they appear to be sealed lead-acid batteries.

The information I provided regarding gel batteries refers to the classic gel batteries from brands like Sonnenschein, Panasonic, and Fiamm, etc.

optima also states that, as a difference from the Gel battery:

******************************************
16. How does a Gel Cell compare to your deep cycle battery?
Most gel batteries have a much higher internal resistance, which means they will not be able to deliver or receive current as efficiently. This is especially noticeable at higher amperage levels. For example, most gel batteries will not work successfully in engine starting applications.
********************************************

Optima batteries are batteries with a fixed electrolyte (similar to AGM batteries from brands like Varta). They can be operated in any orientation, just like gel batteries.

'The Optima batteries deliver extremely high currents, and the Yellow battery is very cycle-stable. The self-discharge rate is very, very low. I know some farmers who use these batteries in their stationary systems. They can leave them installed and unused for 6 months...'



Recommended charging rates:

Alternator:
13.8 to 15.0 volts, no amperage limit.


Battery charger:
13.8 to 15.0 volts, maximum 10 amps, maximum 8 hours.


Boost Recharge:
Maximum voltage: 15.6 volts (regulated).
Maximum current: 60 amps.
Maximum recharge time: 2 hours.
All limits must be strictly followed.


Float charge:
13.2 to 13.8 volts, maximum current of 1 amp, operating time indefinite (at lower voltage levels).


CU Gremlin.

Hello!

You can also find similar products at www.elv.de!
Even with a circuit diagram.
s. http://www.elv-downloads.de/service/manuals/PB300/62453-PB300.pdf

Costs €11.95 as a kit.
and as a finished product, 14.95.


Whether it's worth the effort to build something like that yourself...


Best regards, Sigi.

I don't feel like reading the entire thread...
I have installed the Megapulse in 5 cars (for 1 year now). No battery failures.
The system makes sense to me! The 5kHz vibrations break down the lead sulfates, allowing the battery to recover. The device also prevents sulfation, thus keeping the battery healthy. Of course, this device doesn't help with plate cracks or similar issues.

In my A3 (which is used mostly for short trips and with the auxiliary heating frequently running), I also have a VW zinc-calcium battery.

I've heard a lot of good things about the Optima, but also a lot of bad things. Besides that, I find them too expensive.
I paid 250 euros gross for the 5 Megapulse units.

Hello!

You can also find similar products at www.elv.de!
Even with a circuit diagram.
s. http://www.elv-downloads.de/service/manuals/PB300/62453-PB300.pdf

Costs €11.95 as a kit.
and as a finished product, 14.95.


Whether it's worth the effort to build something like that yourself...


Best regards, Sigi

The kit is not approved for use on public roads.
Frag mich nciht warum. That's just how it is.


I use Megapulse in both my motorcycle and my car.
The batteries are each approximately 3.5 years old.

Through 5kHz oscillations .

Wasn't it 8 kHz?

Hello!

You can also find similar products at www.elv.de!
Even with a circuit diagram.
s. http://www.elv-downloads.de/service/manuals/PB300/62453-PB300.pdf

Costs €11.95 as a kit.
and as a finished product, 14.95.


Whether it's worth the effort to build something like that yourself...


Best regards, Sigi

The kit is not approved for use on public roads.
Frag mich nciht warum. That's just how it is.


I use Megapulse in both my motorcycle and my car.
Each battery is approximately 3.5 years old.

However, even with a self-built vehicle, you won't have road approval.

Hi,
What are the drawbacks of the Optima battery, besides the price and the unrealistic dimensions, specifically for the 75Ah version?
I now have one myself because of the auxiliary heating system, but it will probably take a few years before a final verdict is reached.

Yep, they were 8kHz! Sorry!

Hello,

garth.brooks wrote:

Surface sulfation should not occur on the vehicle, unless, as you described, the battery is not charged correctly. Normally, even short trips are sufficient with a functioning alternator. . .

For those who are interested in maximizing the lifespan of their battery (and are willing to put in some effort), here are my current experiences.
For almost 3 years, I've been using a gasoline engine battery that is actually much too small for my Ibiza TDI, with a capacity of 45Ah / 450A(EN), primarily due to weight considerations. To keep it in the best possible condition, I connect a modified Einhell charger with a 14.4V voltage limit and temperature compensation at least every weekend, and charge it until the current meter drops below 0.5A. This can sometimes take several hours, even with a functioning alternator and undamaged charging cables, depending on the recent driving patterns – which shows me that short trips are not always sufficient to keep a battery truly fully charged. From the battery's perspective, it has received charging cycles for about 3 years, which is a mix of everyday short trips and regularly interspersed longer trips.
"Despite the regular top-ups, it has seemed to me lately that the battery is gradually starting to weaken: for example, the interior light flickers more noticeably when starting the car than I remember from before (under similar conditions: outside temperature and the amount of time the car is parked)."
To have a readily available replacement in case the battery completely fails, I recently purchased a similar lightweight 50Ah / 520A battery and installed it in the Ibiza.

The upgraded 45Ah battery is now the subject of my current research into battery life.
First, I connected the battery to the Einhell charger for several days to measure the minimum leakage current (which, even after many hours, does not decrease further). This leakage current is roughly proportional to the battery's capacity and provides an indication of its chemical age. New batteries with a capacity of approximately 50 to 100 Ah typically have a leakage current of less than 100 mA, as far as I know.
My calibrated analog multimeter showed a reading of 110mA on the removed 45Ah battery, and this current remained constant even over the course of a whole night.
Then, for several nights, the battery was connected to a Microcharge Power-Pulsar (which is powered by the mains), and subsequently, it was connected to the Einhell charger again, and lo and behold: it now only draws 65 mA of leakage current while charging at the same voltage.
I interpret this as a significant chemical rejuvenation of the battery. In other words, after 3 years of operation, it seems to have been so heavily sulfated that I noticed initial signs of weakness, and the leakage current during charging was also noticeably higher compared to a new battery. Apparently, even regular full charging couldn't change this, but only short charging pulses, such as those from the Pulsar (oscillation measurements show the typical discharge curves of inductances with a duration of approximately 0.3 milliseconds and initial currents of approximately 1.2A), seem to be able to break down the gradually formed sulfate layers.

It remains to be seen whether the 45Ah battery will feel "rejuvenated" when I reinstall it in the Ibiza.
Of course, she won't live forever thanks to the treatment, but she will eventually die from cell senescence or a break in the scaffold or a cell connector. However, I'm clinging to the hope that this will happen much later than the point at which she would need to be "disposed of" due to sulfate-induced power loss (without replenishment).


By the way, I believe the Microcharge device, due to its mains power supply and the resulting ability to disconnect the battery from the vehicle's electrical system, is the most consistent design in the field of battery refreshers. This ensures that all of the impulse energy goes directly into the battery, rather than being partially absorbed by the vehicle's electrical system, which is unavoidable with devices that are permanently connected to the vehicle's built-in battery (e.g., Novitec).
Devices that constantly draw power from the battery inevitably produce additional sulfate, thus making a real reduction in the amount of sulfate within the battery impossible.