Off-Road Suspension: Is It Worth It?

Hello everyone,

No, I don't want to give up my car... I'm looking for advice regarding a potential new vehicle for my father. It should be somewhat capable on rough terrain, just like the Renault Kangoo 4x4 that I currently use.

Typically, all-wheel drive and increased ground clearance are included, but I believe that in most situations, the latter combined with an electronic differential lock should be sufficient. If you get stuck, even a small electric winch can help, because there are plenty of trees in the forest, and it worked very well with my old Trabant (which had surprisingly good ground clearance), even without a winch. On the other hand, all-wheel drive always consumes more fuel, especially when driving on roads (which is the majority of the journey), using a significant amount of gasoline (or diesel). In the gasoline Kangoo, this amounts to 1-1.5 liters compared to the two-wheel drive model.

Here's the translation:

"That's why my question is: Does anyone have experience with VW's off-road suspension systems? Do they provide enough ground clearance, and more importantly, sufficient protection against getting stuck? Are there any aftermarket or supplementary kits available?"

Here, we're talking about forest paths with occasional mud and ruts, not off-road test tracks or anything like that.

Best regards,

January.

Hi Jan,

How about a Skoda Octavia Scout? It's kind of like an "off-road vehicle."

Should it be a brand new car? What exactly will it be used for?

HI,

Quote:

How about a Skoda Octavia Scout? It's kind of like an "off-road vehicle."

"However, it also has four-wheel drive, which comes with the corresponding surcharge for something that is hardly ever needed. You can find plenty of off-road 4x4 vehicles... I'm currently exploring whether there are any two-wheel drive vehicles that can handle slightly more challenging terrain without getting stuck or sustaining damage. In the past, such vehicles existed... most of the German army's T3 vans didn't have all-wheel drive, but were still quite capable off-road."

In the off-road suspension configuration options on the VW configurator, you can basically only laugh... It offers a mere 2 cm more ground clearance, going from 9.5 to 11.5 or something like that!

Best regards,

January.

Hi,

Quote:

Should it be a brand new vehicle? What exactly will it be used for?

So far, it's just an idea... not a concrete plan. The intended application is hunting, which involves legally driving on forest roads that can sometimes be muddy or rutted from forestry vehicles. It definitely shouldn't be used for off-road riding .

The Kangoo is very well suited for that purpose, but it's generally quite large (especially tall) and extremely fuel-thirsty (consuming 10 liters of gasoline per 100 kilometers is no problem).

Best regards,

January.

With a clear conscience, I could recommend my last car to you! http://www.suzukimania.de/forum/galerie.php?car=ignis&nr=6

Standard ground clearance of 17 cm. All-wheel drive is available as an option; the 1.5-liter engine can also be ordered with an automatic transmission. Available engine options: 1.25 DDIS (69 hp, diesel), 1.3 16V (94 hp), and 1.5 16V-VVT (99 hp). The 1.5-liter engine was not very popular and has therefore not been offered since 2006. Diesel engines are also rare on the market, although slightly more were sold.

Body style: Mini-SUV. Very clear design, high entry point, decent interior space, and a trunk that is generally large enough. However, the suspension prioritizes comfort over sportiness. The folding rear seats leave a step in the trunk floor. My girlfriend has the same model with a 1.3L engine. It's been running since 2004 and now has 80,000 km (approximately 50,000 miles), operating reliably without any issues – despite being manufactured in Hungary. One of my colleagues owns a 2005 model with the 1.5L engine, which also hasn't had any problems. However, it has only been driven about 20,000 km (approximately 12,000 miles). I sold my DDIS model after 85,000 km (approximately 53,000 miles) in just 3 years last summer. The link to the gallery shows some pictures.

Feel free to email me again if you have any more questions!

@Hatdriver

I always remembered the Ignis as being uglier. Your pictures make it look good. If you don't mind me asking, why did you sell the car?
What was the consumption level?

Click on the fuel consumption tracker for my current Peugeot, which is linked below. Once the page loads, click on my username and you should be taken to another registered vehicle. You'll find the fuel consumption history for the Ignis there. However, unlike with the Peugeot, I didn't start recording data for the Ignis from the beginning.

The Ignis was the second generation. The first one was completely manufactured in Japan. There were a 5-door and a 3-door version of the original. The only engine offered was a 1.3 16V with 83 horsepower. After the generational change, the remaining 3-door models were fitted with a body kit, slightly improved interior, and a 1.6-liter engine producing 109 horsepower, marketed as the Ignis Sport. Despite the lowered suspension and 185 tires on 15-inch rims, the handling didn't improve. The relatively young target audience of the Ignis Sport was hesitant to buy it, and many fell victim to its not entirely harmless driving characteristics, leading to accidents. The already light rear end was even lighter in the 3-door version, and the slightly heavier 1.6-liter engine made the car even more front-heavy.

My Ignis DDIS, which I bought new in 2004, was the second generation. While it had a completely redesigned exterior, it still used the old body structure, with the trunk floor extended by approximately 1/2 meter. This significantly improved the cargo space, which was barely enough for a case of beer in the first model. The longer rear section made the rear end slightly more stable, but they stuck with the "inexpensive rear axle design" consisting of a rigid axle and a diagonal Panhard rod. Because the suspension was deliberately designed for comfort, every time the rear axle compressed, it caused a shift in the vehicle's tracking. The relatively heavy diesel engine, developed by GM and manufactured by FIAT, also resulted in a weight distribution that was quite front-heavy.

My very early 2004 model had various manufacturing defects and design flaws. I had to change workshops several times because they sometimes considered me overly picky. Relatively early on, I experienced water leakage on the passenger side. Rainwater running down from the windshield flowed to the right of the hose fitting for the rear window washer system into the interior and accumulated under the carpet. The hose fitting was a design flaw because the seals shrank after about 6 months and became leaky. With the model update, the hose was then routed elsewhere into the interior, and subsequent models should not have this problem. I sealed the gasket with body sealant, and the dried-out interior and the mildewed carpet were replaced under warranty. My girlfriend had the same problem with her gasoline-powered car – the solution was the same as mine! My colleague's 1.5L engine has the modified hose fitting and is dry.

While my girlfriend's gasoline-powered car rolls perfectly well on its standard 175/65 R14 tires, my diesel engine caused the tires to scrub noisily along the outer edge with every turn due to the higher axle load. This resulted in immense tire wear despite my very cautious driving style. I then tried 14-inch alloy wheels that were 6 inches wide (instead of 5 inches) and fitted them with 195/60 R14 tires. This significantly improved the Ignis's road handling; the somewhat spongy suspension suddenly had something resembling precision in corners, and the scrubbing, or sliding on the narrow tires, completely stopped. Of course, this was inspected and approved for registration.

"The diesel engine consumed three MAP sensors in the 85,000 km (approximately 53,000 miles). Each time, it was an expensive experience! The alternator (Magneti Marelli) was replaced under warranty at around 60,000 km (approximately 37,000 miles) due to a faulty free-running clutch. However, the process dragged on for a long time because the warranty claim was initially rejected multiple times. With the expert support of a competent workshop and a lawyer, it eventually went through. Of course, an alternator is a wear item, but 60,000 km is not within its normal lifespan. I also had problems with one of the two lambda sensors – the monitoring sensor seems to age quite quickly."

The engine itself was great, but the tuning was uncomfortable. Initially, the engine had a pronounced turbo lag, making it difficult to get going. Once it overcame this lag, it violently spun the wheels – often in second or third gear. And all of this with only a 1.25-liter displacement. It certainly had power, thanks to its 170 Nm of torque!

Depending on the engine speed, oil consumption was also a factor, but it wasn't noticeable with a gentle driving style. However, a longer and faster highway drive could significantly reduce the fuel level. Overall, the gear ratio was very short, which allowed the vehicle to achieve almost sporty performance in the city or on country roads, even with this tiny engine. Despite this, I'm not a speed demon; you can tell because after 85,000 km, there was still about 50% of the brake pad material left. On my girlfriend's gasoline car, the brake pads needed to be replaced after only 50,000 km.

The three-year inspection revealed defects in the rear axle bushings, which required a rather expensive replacement. The wear is inherent to the design, as the rear suspension doesn't treat them gently. My girlfriend's Ignis will also need a replacement soon. Due to a malfunctioning EGR valve, the diesel engine occasionally displayed error messages, which then necessitated removing the EGR valve for cleaning and repair during the emissions test. That was another costly issue! The intake manifold also had to be cleaned because it looked similar to the frightening images of some TDI intake manifolds that are shown in technical articles.

This FIAT engine was essentially a dirty machine – at least considering the clouds of soot it emitted, despite being a relatively modern powerplant. The tailgate was constantly covered in soot. Furthermore, during faster highway driving, the aforementioned oil consumption added to the problem, also contributing to the soot production. Because the emissions test was failed on the second attempt, even after cleaning the EGR valve, the glow plugs were replaced. These glow plugs continue to run for a long time when the engine is cold, affecting performance and combustion chamber temperature. Out of the original four, only one remained functional, but this didn't seem to affect starting in the summer.

Eventually, these minor issues that constantly required repairs started to annoy me. Especially since my job requires a lot of travel and I drive significant annual mileage (between 30,000 and 40,000 km per year), these frequent visits to the workshop became very frustrating. However, the last workshop I regularly visited was technically excellent, and I often received a loan car when the repair took more than 1-2 hours.

There's absolutely nothing to say against the gasoline engine in terms of reliability. My friend's 1.3-liter engine is quite noisy at highway speeds, but otherwise, it runs well. The engine is very responsive and can achieve fuel consumption between 6 and 7.5 liters. The higher seating position is quite comfortable and provides good visibility. The standard ground clearance of 17 cm is likely more than double what Jan mentioned earlier. The Ignis can be driven quickly, but it's not a sports car. The high center of gravity and sensitivity to crosswinds are quite annoying on the highway.

Ignis models of the second generation with the 1.3L engine can be found at a reasonable price. The corrosion protection is generally good, but could be improved in areas prone to stone chips. You can comfortably travel longer distances with 4 people, and shorter trips can also accommodate 5. While the FIAT diesel engine is fundamentally good, its weak points are the peripheral components.

Hello everyone,

At first glance, the Ignis looks very good. However, a report by "Hutfahrer" brings it down quite a bit, and the fact that they discontinued the diesel version is ultimately the deal-breaker.

It's a shame, because the concept sounded very good, and with proper implementation, it could have been a viable alternative – but as it is, probably not.

Back then, before we bought the Kangoo, a Subaru Justy was also being considered, but it completely failed during the test drive (I don't remember the details anymore, but it was disastrous).

It should definitely be diesel...

Why doesn't VW simply build a Fox or Polo with the option of 15...19 cm ground clearance? 11.5 cm on the CrossPolo is more like a joke...

Best regards,

January.

Diesel versions also appear as new cars on Mobile or Scout platforms. These are either leftover stock or models not intended for the German market. The Ignis is currently manufactured in Hungary, but production will likely cease soon due to declining demand. A slightly more upscale successor, the SX4, has already been defined, but it's a whole class higher in terms of size and price, costing around 50,000 EUR more.

You could consider a 1.3 Ignis manufactured from the end of 2005 onwards. There were some detailed improvements under the bodywork. The special edition models, such as the X-45 series, had been visually enhanced. They offered the full equipment that was previously reserved for the 1.5L or diesel versions, including electrically heated exterior mirrors, fog lights, seat heaters, different upholstery fabrics, and other amenities. Overall, the X-45 special edition model was reasonably priced. If you were to buy all those extras individually, including the special paint job, it would have cost twice as much.

You can definitely buy an Ignis produced from the end of 2005 onwards – although I wouldn't repeat that diesel experiment. My girlfriend's gasoline-powered one has never broken down or required unscheduled visits to the workshop. Aside from the water leak mentioned, there were no other issues. It passed the technical inspection (HU) and emissions test (AU) without problems. Cracks were found in the rear axle suspension bushings, and it was recommended that they be replaced within the next 2 years.

If your parents like the overall concept and the size is sufficient, then the Ignis would certainly be a viable option. It's possible that I simply had bad luck with my diesel engine. This engine is used in the Corsa-C and Agila, Suzuki Ignis, Wagon R+, Fiat Punto and Panda, Lancia Y, among others. A more modified version of it is now used in the Fiat Grande Punto, Opel Astra-G, Corsa-D, and Suzuki Swift. It was very popular in the Corsa-C, and also quite sought after at Fiat and Lancia.

Apparently, some people experienced engine failures when they pushed the machines too hard and ignored or overlooked the unusual noises coming from the tensioner chain guide. If the tensioner broke, the chain would snap, and the engine was ruined.

In the series, the supplier for the alternator was changed, which I had been experiencing problems with. After installing this part, my diesel engine might have finally run smoothly. In any case, they took action.

"The oil consumption varies from very high to almost negligible. According to forum reports, a different type of honey (presumably referring to an additive or lubricant) has been used since 2005, which shortens the break-in period and significantly reduces oil consumption, especially at the beginning. Opel responded to customer complaints about excessive soot emissions with four new software versions, some of which initially caused occasional issues with partial load operation. The last two versions have also been revised accordingly. There are isolated reports that the engines ran better or worse after the software update, but I would dismiss this as wishful thinking, as different things were claimed with the same software versions. Fiat has also tried various solutions, mainly aimed at reducing soot emissions."

The standard brake pads for the 2004 and 2005 models can either wear out very quickly (mine were ready for replacement after just 1500 km!) or squeal. The fast-wearing pads initially show extremely high abrasion and then become noticeable with a loud squealing sound from the wear indicator. The replacement was covered under warranty, and the brake pads they replaced had about 50% of their thickness remaining at 85,000 km. From 2005 onwards, this problem is considered to be resolved. However, now the brake pads tend to squeal because they don't release properly due to rough sliding surfaces in the calipers. Workshops usually replace the pads under warranty, but this only provides a temporary solution. The correct solution would be to rework the sliding surfaces on the calipers that guide the pads. However, the manufacturer does not consider this to be a problem-solving measure, so workshops either don't do it or only do it as a gesture of goodwill for customer satisfaction. In some cases, they may charge for this work, but most likely did it without charging the customer (and absorbed the cost themselves, since it wasn't considered regular warranty work).
"Jan, you were talking about the Subaru Justy! It's been essentially the same as the Ignis since 2004 – it just has different bumpers (which I find ugly). Initially, Subaru offered the Justy with a 1.5-liter and a 1.3-liter engine, both featuring a viscosity-controlled all-wheel drive system. They didn't offer a diesel version, and when they discontinued the 1.5-liter engine, it was also dropped from Subaru's lineup. The Justy is considerably more expensive than the Ignis, but it has been quite popular in areas like the Thuringian Forest, mountainous regions of Hesse and Franconia, and elsewhere. People who needed an all-wheel drive subcompact car due to winter road conditions often chose it. However, for the same price, you could also buy a Suzuki and usually get more features for your money. Of course, the optional all-wheel drive is available there too! However, with the Ignis or Justy, the ground clearance suffers, the performance is worse, and the fuel consumption of the 1.5-liter engine is about 1.5 liters higher than that of the 2WD version. For forest roads and fields, where maneuverability and ground clearance are key, the 2WD is also sufficient. Moreover, the 4WD lacks any useful features typically found in all-wheel drive systems, such as a selectable low range or differential locks."

Hi,

The incident with the Justy happened before 2004, probably around 2002, maybe even 2001. It was cramped and incredibly slow – likely due to the four-wheel drive system.

Quote:

For forest and field roads, where maneuverability and ground clearance are the only factors that matter, a 2WD system is sufficient.

My speech .

I'll pass this along, but in my opinion, there are more arguments against it than for it...

Best regards,

January.

@ Hatdriver

Thank you very much for the detailed description of your Ignis. I completely agree with Jan. It's a shame that the concept didn't quite work out. The fuel consumption seems quite reasonable, though...

I'm also a 'slow driver,' at least that's what I consider myself. Even on the highway (around 140 km per day), I never go faster than 120 km/h, usually less. My Golf uses about 5.5 liters of fuel per 100 km. Plus, the taxes and insurance are very low. However, this situation won't last much longer. My fuel supply is dwindling every day, and my Golf is constantly breaking down (it's literally the worst Mk2 I've ever seen).
I don't know what will come next. It will either be a small and economical diesel engine (less than 5 liters per 100 km) or a gasoline engine converted to run on LPG.

How satisfied are you with your 206 compared to the Ignis? You can sometimes find the Ignis with a light commercial vehicle (LCV) registration, if you're lucky.
Is it reasonable to assume that the smaller CR diesel engines are not as long-lasting as models like the 1Z, meaning that exceeding 250,000 km is not a problem?

"@ Doc: The aerodynamically unfavorable high body shape takes its toll on the highway. It's no coincidence that the maximum speed is only stated as 155 km/h. Other cars with 69 horsepower achieve more. However, there are some STG versions that have a speed limiter. These are then limited to 160 km/h according to the speedometer – so that no customer complains. When measured with GPS, they reached exactly the stated 155 km/h. A look at the fuel consumption monitor for the Ignis shows that speeding on the highway can easily double fuel consumption."

Even today, I still like the basic concept of the Ignis. As a DJ, I can use it to transport my equipment and even take my girlfriend along. However, that already includes two 75-liter "loudspeaker cubes," a 22 kg amplifier, a small mixer, a 19" rack with sound processing and lighting control, two CD players, optionally two turntables, and a computer. When playing CDs or records, you also need to add three shopping crates of CDs or three record boxes. Stands, two 4-light bars, and a cable case complete the equipment. All of that – if you know how to load it properly – fits into the Ignis, and even into a Peugeot 206! However, loading is a bit more challenging in the latter due to the smaller tailgate and lower interior height. But you can definitely transport a full-fledged DJ setup with a small car!

The Ignis's clear advantage is its "off-road suspension" and impressive ground clearance. The Peugeot can't compete with that; yesterday, it got stuck on what seemed like a harmless sandy parking lot. It damaged the jacking point in the front right corner... It needs to be straightened out again and then protected with underbody sealant.

I think it's kind of, well, let's say 'brave' that you want to transport so much and still get a small car.
But you'll have that reflected in the maintenance costs as well.
Okay, I've taken advantage of Jan's thread enough now, so please let's get back on topic.

@ Doc: As you can see, it's possible to do this! Anyone else would have used these transportation needs as a justification for buying a Skoda Octavia Combi, Golf Variant, or something similar. The fact is that the operating costs of cars are not decreasing but rather increasing. Of course, all of that is less painful with a smaller vehicle with a low displacement and lower fuel consumption.

The 206 serves me just as well as an everyday car, in the same way that the Ignis did almost 3.5 years ago. It's also sufficient for the 10-15 jobs I have per year and fulfills my transportation needs.