Frequent rolling = ZMS killer?

Hello,

Since I frequently encounter long uphill and downhill sections on my daily routes, I often switch off the engine to save fuel while going downhill, and then restart it again at the bottom: this happens approximately 6 times per day (I enjoy the challenge of optimizing fuel consumption within the capabilities of my vehicle ).

Rolling it up doesn't feel bad (in the 6th. Just a small, gentle nudge), but it's a type of stress that the ZMS initially wasn't designed for.

Therefore, I am wondering whether the achieved approximately 10% Sprite saving could be offset by a much earlier ZMS (presumably, a system or component) failure.
Or do higher loads still occur more frequently under normal operating conditions, for example, when there is a sudden increase or decrease in speed, where the engine and gearbox speeds are mismatched when engaging, resulting in a jolt?
Or what must the ZMS (presumably a component related to vehicle dynamics) withstand when "sportily" accelerating (still below the "Kavalierstart" noise threshold)?

. . . so dass etwa 6 vorsichtige Anwendungen pro Tag (hoffentlich) lediglich den konstruktiv abgedeckten Belastungsbereich des ZMS im Bereich von "Peanuts" verändern?

I'm not familiar with the ZMS setup. The load is reversed compared to acceleration. The load is similar to that of engine braking. Abrupt gas movements and careless handling of the clutch when braking should (I'm not 100% sure about this, but it doesn't matter) already create more stress.

However, since the load during starting from a standstill is significantly higher than in your case, it shouldn't make any difference, and it won't cause any faster wear and tear. Assuming that the construction of the ZMS is designed for loads from both "directions" identically.

That I find it dangerous doesn't really matter at this point. In my case, the power cutoff usually works well on inclines, but it seems like it's not steep enough for you?

Herr Antje wrote:

In my case, the motor brake is usually sufficient for inclines, but it seems your terrain isn't steep enough for that?

Yes, partially, already.
But my trail profiles are sometimes wavy, and a completely disconnected swing is only enough to roll faster over flatter sections, without becoming a traffic hazard. When the engine is running, one would have to repeatedly consume fuel to maintain the same speed

By the way, I also use the handbrake (at known locations) to brake: this prevents the rear brakes from seizing, and the parking brake remains "active" for emergency situations.

So, I don't see it that critically (referring to the act of rolling, not the rolling itself). If your ZMS should break down, you won't necessarily know whether it would have broken down much later without this process.

Fun:

ulf wrote:

I also use the handbrake (at known locations)

Ah, so ist es also kein Problem, wenn dein Servo ausfällt, mit Geschick und der Handbremse kann man das Lenken ja auch sparen..

The servo has already coded Ulf to operate at minimal support

As far as I know, the ZMS is symmetrical. And from my gut feeling, a cavalier start would cause more damage than a skillful roll.

m;

Herr Antje wrote:

Ah, then it doesn't matter if your servo fails, with skill and the handbrake, you can also save on steering..

The electro-hydraulic steering system continues to operate with the motor even when the vehicle is stationary. It only turns off when the speed drops below ~ pedestrian pace

If it's symmetrical, then your engine is now, for example, delivering >>310 Nm to your ZMS, the wheels are already engaged. It's clear that your Poldi doesn't need as much as 310 Nm to start, otherwise you could just use your starting motor and not consume any fuel at all

ulf wrote:

The electro-hydraulic steering system continues to operate even when the vehicle is stationary, using the motor. It only switches off when the speed drops below ~ pedestrian pace

Have I once again got a hopelessly outdated vehicle? My power steering only works when the engine is running (at least that's how it felt when towing). Well, if it's already rolling, you probably don't need the servo anymore...

So, ich hatte plötzlich die Kontrolle über SSP 142 . Wie ich es sehe/verstehe/lesen kann, ist der ZMS definitiv symmetrisch, andernfalls würde es keinen Sinn machen.

At low speeds (when he's hanging on the engine), the vibrations are mainly absorbed by the coil springs of the external damper, which must compensate for the highest torque peaks.

Also, the starting with a traffic light must also be precisely balanced by these springs. Therefore, any rolling motion should not be a problem. Your increased engine performance, however, is already there... (which is somewhat compensated for by the weight reduction ).

Speculation:
My suspicion is, however, that driving at low speeds has a greater impact on the wear and tear of the clutch than driving at high speeds. If you want to save your ZMS (presumably referring to a motorcycle or engine), you should therefore ride at high speeds (if the engine is running).

Quote:

. . . so dass etwa 6 vorsichtige Anwendungen pro Tag (hoffentlich) ausreichen, um die konstruktiv geschützte Belastungszone des ZMS nur im Bereich von "Peanuts" zu beeinflussen?

That's how I see it too. If you gently engage the clutch for just a moment while starting, it shouldn't put more strain on the engine than starting with the starter motor. What's important to me is that it only lasts for a brief moment, so that it's already disconnected as soon as the engine has completed its first task.

BM wrote:

If you carefully engage the clutch for just a moment while starting, the load should not be greater than if you started with the starter. What's important to me is that it only lasts for a brief moment, so that it's already disconnected as soon as the engine has completed its first task.

Yes, I'll do it like this: Briefly release the clutch so that the engine is gently pushed to just below the LL (Low-Low) RPM, and then immediately re-engage the clutch to prevent it from "getting caught in the power flow" during starting and high-speed cranking (hopefully you understand what I mean).

Quote:

I hope you understand what I mean

Exactly like that, you can't formulate it any better.

I wouldn't allow it to rotate even in the first second either,
"This is because the oil pressure is still missing, and the turbo sucks in a significant amount of air mass even when the AGR is "defective" >> the turbo speed increases sharply, and the shaft may still be dry."
How about the lubrication of the gearbox, actually?
I also often take the gear out, but for example, with tractors, you can't disengage and put it in neutral because otherwise not all the gears will be lubricated, and the gearbox oil won't "get flung around." Some tractors even have gearbox oil pumps.
Do you understand what I mean?
The oil might no longer be able to circulate if the Ganges is disconnected and removed, and the bearing surfaces above the oil level could dry out over time.
or is the gear output shaft with its gears below the oil level?

a dancer wrote:

I wouldn't want to spin it during the first few seconds either. "This is because the oil pressure is still missing, and the turbo sucks in a significant amount of air mass when the "defective" AGR is present >> the turbo speed increases sharply, and the shaft may still be dry."

It's not that bad: there's a small amount of oil in the pump housing that lubricates the shaft until fresh oil is pumped up.
Additionally, chargers also don't fail massively during cold starts, where
a) the exhaust stream is at its highest, because a lot of fuel must be injected in order to keep the stiff engine running at all
b) it takes the longest time for the viscous oil to arrive at the loading point.

Quote:

How does the gearbox lubrication actually work, though? I also often take the gear out, and the oil might no longer circulate if the gear is disconnected and removed. The bearing surfaces above the oil level could also dry out over time. or is the gear output shaft with its gears below the oil level? . . . but, for example, with tractors, it is not allowed to disengage or put them in neutral because otherwise not all the gears will be running in oil, and the gearbox oil will otherwise be "thrown around". In fact, some tractors even have gearbox oil pumps. . . . Do you understand what I mean?

Yes, I understand.

The analogy to this is the ban on towing vehicles with automatic transmissions.
In Schaltgetrieben, as far as I know, there is no comparable restriction, so it should (hopefully) not be a critical issue.
According to my estimate, at least the lower part of the differential housing is submerged in oil and lifts oil upwards when the car is in motion.

Yes....

If nothing is moving, nothing needs to be lubricated. The input shaft is stationary, therefore the motor is stationary. The output shaft will inevitably rotate because the wheels are rotating. I don't know how the situation with the idle speed is looking.

I consider this factor to be insignificant in the context of passenger cars, but it is definitely a critical factor in commercial vehicles, depending on the type of transmission. A large tractor gearbox will definitely need an oil pump, just like other large gearboxes.

I'm not familiar with the "tractors and gear down" thing. The laborers I know actually let the machines run even during their lunch break. Maybe it was like this, though.


I am not 100% sure about the terms in German, so please be careful. I also neglect movements caused by indirect drive, such as "fluid drive," for example.

If the clutch is depressed in the LL (Low gear), and the vehicle is stationary, the gears in the transmission will be engaged (regardless of whether a gear is selected or not). If the gear is disengaged, with the engine running and the clutch not depressed, only the primary shaft will be running. However, this situation should not be detrimental. See: Postmen/Delivery services, Traffic jams, ...

During driving and then when the vehicle is rolling with the engine running (without the gear being engaged or the clutch being pressed), both shafts (dependent or independent of each other) are in motion.

In Ulf's case, if he removes the gear (either by holding the clutch or not, it doesn't matter), only the secondary shaft will turn (which is as it should be when towing). If he keeps the gear in but presses the clutch, the secondary shaft will drive the primary shaft, and both will turn. From the transmission's perspective, this represents a specific driving situation.

So gibt es also nur die Variante des Abschleppens (nur sekundär), die Variante des "Stand-and-run" (nur primär) und die Variante des Fahrens (beide, unabhängig davon, ob es sich um eine abhängige oder unabhängige Variante handelt). It would be terrible if one of them were harmful.

Hello.

I would like to raise a concern regarding the timing belt drive.
Finally, the engine is started (using significantly more power than the starter).
The tension on the timing belt could become very high.

Greetings

Borys