AGR Adaptation: Loss of Operating Permit?

Hello,

For many (all?) TDIs, it's possible to significantly alter the exhaust values by adjusting the EGR function -> for example, compare the ratio of target air masses at idle between the minimum and maximum adaptation values.

Aside from the welcome reduction in soot deposits in the intake manifold at higher air mass flow rates:
Does anyone have reliable information on whether the emission values remain within the respective emission standards even when fully utilizing the adaptation range?

If not, why does the Type-BE allow exhaust values to be easily changed into an impermissible range without any hardware modifications, meaning without altering the actual ECU data set?

Quote:

If not, why does the Type BE approval allow exhaust values to be easily changed into an impermissible range without any hardware modifications or changes to the actual ECU data set?

I think the first step in answering that question should be to figure out what the purpose of the AGR adaptation is in the first place. I'd really like to know more about that.
It's highly unlikely that they were installed to give experienced users the ability to counteract the build-up of deposits in the intake manifold.

As far as I know, these adaptations are not used at all in customer service, although perhaps they were considered for use at some point.

Answer in speculation mode:

Modular system: one engine available in various body styles with different transmissions, resulting in varying performance levels. This may also be to comply with different emission standards (although, to my knowledge, modern TDIs are not sold in the US).

And what's always a good idea: adjusting manufacturing tolerances.

matthiasTDI96 wrote:

Answer in speculation mode: "A modular system where one engine is used in various body styles with different transmissions, resulting in varying performance levels. This might also be to meet different emission standards (although, to my knowledge, modern TDIs are not sold in the US)." And what is always a good idea: to change the manufacturing tolerances.

Isn't that more likely related to "end-of-line" programming? Otherwise, it would imply that there are vehicles where the default value is not 32768, which I haven't seen yet.

Adaptation channels were likely already implemented in the TDI engine so that the exhaust behavior of the engine could be adjusted later. But what is the purpose of this?

Perhaps the field monitoring is in place to ensure that the limits of 80,000 km or now 100,000 km are being adhered to. If many vehicles fail during spot checks, the type approval authority could even demand a recall. This would be more cost-effective if adaptation channels are available, rather than requiring the installation of a new control unit, as is still necessary for many vehicles.

That would naturally imply that the adaptation channels can already be used to adjust the exhaust behavior based on boundary values.

Okay, enough with the wild speculations now...

Malte1408 wrote:

Isn't that more likely "end-of-line" programming? Otherwise, it would mean that there are vehicles where the default value is not 32768. I haven't seen that yet.

Yes, I see it that way too.

Quote:

It's likely that the adaptation channels were already implemented so that the exhaust behavior of the engine could be adjusted later in the TDI, but what for? Perhaps the field monitoring is in place to ensure that the limits of 80,000 km or now 100,000 km are being adhered to. If many vehicles fail during spot checks, the type approval authority could even demand a recall campaign. This would be more cost-effective if adaptation channels are available, rather than requiring the installation of a new control unit, as is still necessary for many vehicles. That would naturally imply that one can already adjust the exhaust behavior from within the defined limits using the adaptation channels.

If we can just manage to bring the values back within the expected "normal range" despite the age-related variations, that would already be sufficient.

If the corridor is wide enough, the same amount of change (starting from values in the middle of the corridor) does not necessarily have to be sufficient to cause a value to leave the corridor.

However, when you consider the subtle differences in the AGR (Abgasrückführung) control units of engines with similar specifications but used in different vehicles (with varying weights and overall gear ratios -> km/h), it seems that the "application engineers" are doing a remarkable job of fine-tuning to ensure compliance with the respective emission standards.
In contrast, the potential adaptation areas seem like using a sledgehammer, which leads me to suspect that it is highly likely that exceeding the emission limits of each respective class can be achieved through adaptation.

Quote:

AGR adaptation -> Does this mean the operating permit is gone?

Short and to the point... -> YES!

The standard adaptation values are included in the approval process. For OBD2 vehicles, an error entry should even be made without a MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp), although this is not always possible. Often, upper and lower limits for the adaptations are specified. Outside these limits, the operating permit (ABE) is invalid.
The adaptations are designed for the various vehicle configurations, allowing the exhaust values to be adjusted to suit individual vehicle types (exhaust and intake systems). They can also be adapted to country-specific emission regulations. However, within the EU, these values are constant.

Quote:

However, when one considers the subtle differences in the EGR control module (KF) of engines with similar specifications but used in different vehicles (with varying weights and overall gear ratios rpm -> km/h), it appears that the "application engineers" are doing very precise work to remain within the respective emission class.

That's how it is...

Bertil wrote:

The standard adaptation values are included in the approval process. For OBD2 vehicles, an error entry should even be made without a MIL (but this is not always possible!!). . . .Often, upper and lower limits for the adaptations are specified. Outside these limits, the ABE (General Operating Permit) is no longer valid.

Thank you, Bertil, finally an answer from our "exhaust pope" .

That probably clarifies everything.

Hello,

Based on my own recent experiences, I can say that despite the extensive adjustment options available for the AGR (Abgasrückführung - exhaust gas recirculation system), you cannot actually influence the actual changes in emissions to a great extent.

This is mainly due to the testing cycles that are carried out, for example, according to European standards. If it were simply a constant journey at a constant speed, without any acceleration, then the situation would look completely different.

But anyone who logs their data will see that, with virtually every acceleration, the EGR valve is either retracted or even closed, meaning its influence on the measurement result isn't as dramatic as often assumed. It's obvious; Volkswagen doesn't want to sell tired vehicles that can't reach full power due to a rich exhaust gas mixture in the cylinder.

I have now carried out several Euro 3 measurements, or had them done, tried different control units, sometimes fully activated the EGR system, and other times left it at its standard setting... and the changes with the same control unit were only about 0.08 g/km more or less of NOx (to be honest, I would have expected more ). However, this resulted in the HC and PM values increasing or decreasing accordingly.

It's impossible to say for sure why VW allows such adaptation, unless you have someone who was responsible for it. However, it's certain that no vehicle will pass an emissions test if it wasn't already close to passing before the adaptation.

And what I also strongly doubt is the claim "different types, different settings." This has already been resolved through the corresponding identification fields.

The only truly important point is the field monitoring. Because if something isn't right there, adapting [the system] becomes easier. However, with EGR alone, you can only shift the pollutants around – less NOx, but more PM and HC, or more NOx and less PM and HC. Either way, achieving both with just adjusting the EGR is not possible.

So, the guessing game continues...

Best regards, Max.

Hello,

Based on my own recent experiences, I can say that despite the extensive adjustment options available for the AGR (Abgasrückführung - exhaust gas recirculation system), you cannot actually influence the actual changes in emissions to a great extent.


Okay, I don't understand this. In the last thread, you were complaining that you couldn't get the NOx readings because the EGR system was always closing. Now you're saying it's not having a significant impact?
Well, something just doesn't seem right now...


This is mainly due to the testing cycles that are carried out, for example, according to European standards. If it were simply a constant journey at a constant speed, without any acceleration, then the situation would look completely different.


Perhaps you haven't interpreted the test cycle correctly.
'You definitely won't be running at full power if you have the right engine in the right chassis.'
If that were the case, virtually every chip tuner would have difficulty obtaining an emissions test certificate for the original emission class while still achieving a 25 to 30 percent increase in power.

The fact that the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system is an extremely important tool for achieving NOx emission targets is evident from the considerable effort and resources invested in its development (including water cooling, among other things).

I still think your problem is that you have too small an engine in a body that's too large.
Perhaps you should also try a water-cooled EGR system. It seems you have so much exhaust gas that even the exhaust itself is getting 'a little warm,' and this is throwing off the entire system.

Best regards, Jochen.

Hello,

Jochen_145 wrote:

Okay, I don't understand this. In the last thread, you were complaining that you couldn't get the NOx readings because the EGR system was always closing. Now you're saying it's not having a significant impact? Something still doesn't seem right.

Um, it seems you might have missed something. The combination of NOx and HC values isn't right. The NOx value alone is just slightly above the limit at 104%. This can be adjusted by slightly delaying the injection timing...
However, this unfortunately results in increased levels of particulate matter (PM) and hydrocarbons (HC), which then need to be reduced through a higher injection pressure.

Jochen_145 wrote:

Perhaps you haven't interpreted the test cycle correctly. "You definitely won't be reaching full power there if you have the right engine in the right body." If that were the case, virtually every chip tuner would have a problem obtaining an emissions test certificate for the original emission class while still achieving a 25 to 30 percent increase in power.

I think I've correctly interpreted the cycle, although I'm not as sure about some other aspects. Just a little background information again...

I want to convert a vehicle that was originally tested according to Euro2 standards to meet Euro3 regulations. Unfortunately, the testing procedures have become much stricter. This isn't about chip tuning anymore; it simply requires an additional 40 seconds of warm-up time for the catalytic converter. That's all there is to it.

Jochen_145 wrote:

The fact that the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system is an extremely important tool for achieving NOx emission targets is evident from the amount of effort and resources invested in it (including water cooling, among other things).

"No one denies that. However, the idea is to redistribute pollutants. Thanks to modern injection systems, it's already possible to meet Euro 4 emission limits for particulate matter (PM) without a diesel particulate filter, and HC (hydrocarbon) values are practically negligible in CDI and PD engines. There's still enough room to shift pollutants at the expense of HC and PM. However, NOx emissions cannot be reduced through the injection process alone."


Best regards, Max.

I think I've correctly interpreted the cycle, although I'm not as sure about some of the other aspects. Just a little background information again...

I want to convert a vehicle that was originally tested according to Euro2 standards to meet Euro3 regulations. Unfortunately, the testing procedures have become much stricter. It's no longer just about chip tuning; it simply requires an additional 40 seconds of warm-up time for the catalytic converter. That's all there is to it.


Hello, yes, things are becoming clearer to me now.

I was mostly preoccupied with the issue of internships.
I've always understood that this value is not typically reached, which is why I object to the claim that I don't have a handle on it. I can manage even heavily chip-tuned engines, as long as these conditions only occur when the engine is operating at over 90% load.

In another thread, I wrote to you about nozzles and pumps.
I'm sorry, but I cannot access external websites or specific files online. Therefore, I am unable to translate the text from the provided URL.

Here's how you can achieve a faster pressure increase, which might help in your situation.
However, this alone will not be enough to keep the cat warm.
To achieve this, you need to actively intervene and artificially increase the exhaust gas temperature.

What software is your engine control unit running? If you're trying to achieve Euro 3 emissions standards solely through external hardware modifications while using a Euro 2 calibration, you will likely fail for the reasons mentioned above.
I'm not familiar with the specific software differences, but the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) has addressed the same issues. And, to my knowledge, apart from the nozzle opening pressure, no hardware changes were made other than the software.

Perhaps you missed something here?
Best regards, Jochen.

Hi there,

I don't think there's a lack of opportunity for success here. Look at Oberland-Mangold, for example. They managed to bring their very old 1Z engines up to Euro 3 standards – solely through "external hardware modifications." Incidentally, the particle mass is actually the least of the problems. A filter can be added if necessary. Right now, I'm mainly concerned about the HC (hydrocarbon) values.

Trying to artificially raise the exhaust temperatures is not really a big problem either. Simply inject late .

And the next problem is that everything has to stay as close to the original as possible. Otherwise, I'm done .

Best regards, Max.

hi everyone,

I have a question regarding adaptation. I have an Octavia II, 2.0 TDI (BKD). In the adaptation settings, the air mass values are located in channel 05 instead of channel 03. However, the only valid value that can be entered and saved is 0.
Why isn't it working for me?

It seems to be resolved. I just found out that it no longer works with EDC16.