TDI mit Common Rail ???? | Posts 16+

Manuel Thomas wrote:

PD-technology already existed in trucks, and at Volkswagen, the engineers were still working on the TDI engine with a VP pump.

... even worse... The PD patent dates back to 1905 and was created by a Rudolf Diesel (a relatively insignificant inventor... ).

Gnaaa...

The PD (which is actually called UI or UIS) is quite different from what's used in truck and ship engines.
There are what are called single pumps there, which function in the same way as the row pumps. They are also edge-driven pumps, as well as V-type pumps.

The unit injector (UI or PD) is a single-cylinder element with a piezo-controlled injection nozzle. This is ENTIRELY different from the single pumps used in trucks.

'By the way, doesn't the Actros have common rail technology?'

CU Gremlin.

Gremlin wrote:

gnaaa... The PD (which is actually called UI or UIS) is quite different from what's used in truck and ship engines. There are what are called individual pumps there, which function in the same way as the row pumps. They are also edge-driven pumps, as well as V-drive pumps.

"...in the case of PD systems, these are individual pumps (similar to those used by UI) that are mounted on the injector to make the system suitable for passenger car dimensions. Trucks have a single pump unit and a short fuel injection line leading to the injector."
Of course, Product Design and User Interface are not the same thing, but the principles used are directly related.

Quote:

The unit injector (UI or PD) is a single-cylinder element with a piezo-controlled injection nozzle. This is ENTIRELY different from the single pumps used in trucks.

Currently, piez-controlled injectors are only available from Siemens Automotive, and they only offer a common rail (CR) system for passenger cars.
Piezo-controlled PD elements do not yet exist!

Quote:

"By the way, doesn't the Actros have common rail technology?"

... no, UI (PD)!

That gives the much smaller Actros engine a torque advantage over the engines with inline pumps.

Common rail technology is likely to be very complex for relatively large truck engines (in terms of mechanical dimensions), as common rail systems are not suitable for long injection lines.

For those who are interested:

User Interface (UI) (PD) for passenger cars.

UI for trucks

Operation of UI (for passenger cars and trucks)

@bertil

Yep, of course the PD elements have magnetic valves...damn multitasking .

Okay, I've checked again:

At Bosch, 'PD' actually stands for 'UI,' which is short for 'unit injector.'
The system with the short piping is called a UP (unit pump).

And as mentioned before, the individual pumps previously used in the truck have nothing to do with this. Essentially, it was a disassembled multi-cylinder pump. These are individual pumps, after all...

BTW: CR (Common Rail) technology is used in the new commercial vehicle and off-highway sectors (e.g., Iveco, Mack, Cummins, Isuzu, MAN...).

Scope of application.
The Bosch 'Common Rail' injection system for engines with direct injection offers significantly greater flexibility in adapting the injection system to the engine compared to conventional, camshaft-driven systems.
Wide range of applications (suitable for passenger cars and light commercial vehicles with power outputs up to 30 kW per cylinder, as well as heavy-duty trucks, locomotives, and ships with power outputs up to approximately 200 kW per cylinder).




@everyone

Here's a short message regarding the Volkswagen emissions scandal. It comes directly from the Bosch Diesel Systems internal server and is dated October 2002:

Common rail technology in Volkswagen vehicles.

Contrary to the official statements released by the company, issues are also occurring at Volkswagen.
The development of diesel engines with common rail injection systems.
third generation. The previously used common rail system, such as a...
Volkswagen's diesel specialist is reaching its limits, especially...
due to the trade-off between comfort and meeting the Euro4 emission standards.


CU Gremlin.

Hello,

Here's a brief overview of the engines manufactured by VAG that use common rail technology:

Engine code, displacement in cc, power output in kW.

03A, 1968, 55.
AKF, 3328, 165
AMT, 2496, 132.
AMS, 2496, 110.
ASB, 2967, 165
ASE, 3937, 200.
AUH, 2799, 116
AZT, 1968, 55.
BCQ, 2799, 116.
BFX, 4745, 108
BFY, 4745, 152.
BFZ, 7118, 214.
BHH, 7118, 191.

Hello,

'These are all very interesting posts. What's particularly interesting to me is the hope that VAG will eventually move away from PD engines. I bought two used TDI models (a Golf and a Passat) in 2001...'
'I bought a used car. I was initially interested in new cars, but since I wanted both cars to have automatic transmissions, I decided against buying new ones because only PD engines were available with automatics (except for the Octavia and Passat V6 TDI). If, when it's time to replace the car in 3-4 years, VAG doesn't offer any CR-TDI engines, I might have to consider switching to a different brand – too bad!'

Best regards,
Jürgen
'Die Sonne scheint hell und warm. Die Vögel zwitschern fröhlich in den Bäumen. Ein leichter Wind weht durch das Gras. Es ist ein wunderschöner Tag.'

The sun is shining brightly and warmly. The birds are chirping happily in the trees. A gentle breeze is blowing through the grass. It's a beautiful day.
PS: I don't like PD!

Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Hi Gremlin,"

Gremlin wrote:

btw: CR (Common Rail) technology is used in the commercial vehicle and off-highway sectors (e.g., Iveco, Mack, Cummins, Isuzu, MAN...).

... with that statement, you are completely wrong.

IVECO:

For the Stralis tractor units and chassis (Note: Introduced January 2002), the Cursor-10 engine with 294 kW (400 PS) and 316 kW (430 PS), as well as the Cursor 13 engine with 353 kW (480 PS) and 397 kW (540 PS) are available. Both engines feature high-pressure direct injection. The pump-nozzle elements are driven by an overhead camshaft. Turbocharging is achieved via a variable geometry exhaust gas turbocharger, which guarantees optimal performance across all speed ranges. This turbocharger also enhances the power of the decompression engine brake. All engine functions are electronically controlled:
Fuel injection quantity and timing, turbocharger intake geometry, control of engine braking and speed. The engine management system is connected to the electronic controls for the transmission, braking system, and retarder. Both Cursor engines, of course, comply with the Euro 3 emission standard.

Gremlin wrote:

Contrary to the official statements released by the company, development of third-generation common-rail diesel engines is also underway at VW. According to a Volkswagen diesel specialist, the previously used pump-injector system is reaching its limits – primarily due to the conflict between comfort and meeting the Euro4 emission standards.

Great! At the same time, another major diesel equipment supplier had the following posted on their intranet:
"The PD concept is the only way to meet the diesel emission standards that came into effect in 2004 without using particulate filters. Therefore, we are increasingly focused on developing PD systems. The first systems are expected to be introduced by a major German car manufacturer at the end of 2003."

The car manufacturer was not mentioned (for a good reason), and I want to mention the diesel supplier for the same reason!



In the field of power drives, Bosch is currently a monopolist!
Since the volume that the Volkswagen Group (VW) will require in the future cannot be supplied by Bosch, a replacement supplier is currently being sought. Bosch is trying to counter this by attempting to sell the Common Rail (CR) technology to VW.
Fakt ist aber das der neu entwickelte Motor (schon im VW Bus und im Pheaton zu sehen) ein PD Motor mit Zahnradantrieb ist. Eine Neuentwicklung die dann (laut Bosch) 2004 wieder im Mülleimer landet? Kann sich das einer vorstellen? Me neither!
However, the statement that Bosch sees a comfortable engine operation being achieved through high injection pressures is incorrect. High injection pressures unfortunately result in a very harsh engine running pattern.

So, let's just wait and see what happens. Everything is speculation for now.

btw: CR (Common Rail) technology is used in the commercial vehicle and off-highway sectors (e.g., Iveco, Mack, Cummins, Isuzu, MAN...).

... with this statement, you are completely on the wrong track...

Well, the department for NKW-CR explicitly lists these companies as customers. By the way, Volkswagen also manufactures ship engines, and Iveco does not only produce tractor-trailer trucks .


Eine Neuentwicklung die dann (laut Bosch) 2004 wieder im Mülleimer landet? Kann sich das einer vorstellen? Me neither!


Sure, here's the translation:

'I already know that. It's clear that when it comes to free design of fuel injection, PD (presumably referring to a specific technology or company) can't compete. This is disadvantageous with regard to particulate filters and NOx storage catalysts.'


So, let's wait and see what happens. So far, everything is speculation.

exactly...

CU Gremlin.

Gremlin wrote:

well, the department for NKW-CR explicitly lists these companies as customers. By the way: VW also manufactures ship engines, and Iveco does not only produce tractor-trailer trucks .

I have always advocated for regulations specifically designed for road vehicles. Because industrial machines are not subject to such strict emission standards, there isn't as much focus on developing sophisticated injection systems for them.

Quote:

One thing is clear: when it comes to free design of the injection system, PD cannot compete.

... if you're looking for a four-valve engine, that's already a thing of the past. The new PD engine from Volkswagen has four-valve technology. The new PD injectors are significantly smaller.

Quote:

This is disadvantageous with regard to the particulate filter and NOx storage catalyst.

Therefore, the goal is to quickly implement higher injection pressures with CR (Common Rail) technology in order to circumvent the particulate filter issue. The diesel particulate filter and the storage catalyst have a waste problem, and they require additional external substances to function properly. Peugeot already faces this problem, as the FAP (Filtre à Particules) particulate filter needs to be replaced after 80,000 km – (approximately as expensive as a timing belt replacement). Is that what you want? Great! Then you won't have the cost of replacing the timing belt anymore, but the catalytic converter (or filter) will still need to be replaced for the same amount of money.

Only when CR systems operate with higher pressures does the quiet engine operation quickly disappear! In that case, only the better control of injection offered by CR (Piezo injectors from Siemens, currently used in Alfa) can help. Unfortunately, this is not as problem-free as it is often portrayed. } However, I believe this will also become a reality in the PD area soon.