Begrenzung über Drehmoment, was ist das innere Moment | Posts 16+

Herbert wrote:

To what extent is this still normal, or could this indicate, for example, a clogged intake manifold, or a leaky EGR valve?

Good question, it could be anything. Since he had higher values with the new LMM, the other one is simply aged.

Since the values are still far from the respective limits, I wouldn't open up a new issue there.

Mullemaus wrote:

That doesn't change the fact that the car is not standard with these values.

Okay, the boost pressure of approximately 2050 mbar already seems quite like a standard configuration. The torque limitation of 234 Nm at 3990 rpm, minus the internal friction (approximately 45 Nm), results in 189 Nm at 3990 rpm. Using the formula P = 2 * Pi * M * n, we get approximately 79 kW, which is about 107 horsepower. So, it also appears to be a standard configuration from this perspective.

Theoretically it could be that a tuning box is already installed, or that the relationship between torque and fuel injection is simply adjusted in the engine control unit. I don't see the latter at all in the log, because no corresponding measurement block was recorded.
Even the very high limit for air mass/boost pressure of 338 Nm is perfectly normal for this engine.

Mullemaus wrote:

Look at the image and then compare the values at, for example, 2500 RPM with the log.

@Mullemaus: Where in the log do you see different values than in your characteristic curve? Perhaps it would be better to simply buy such a car and try it out yourself instead of making assumptions...

Just explain to us how you see things, and most importantly, why. Are you aware that the torque limit values displayed in measurement block 8 are all due to the internal friction of the motor, because the entire control unit calculates with that?
Okay, here's the translation:

"Let the engine idle and check the data block – I'm not sure which one, maybe 20? Logically, an engine at idle produces exactly 0 Nm of torque and 0 horsepower. Therefore, the displayed value represents the internal friction torque at that RPM. In other words, that much torque (and the corresponding fuel injection amount) is required simply to keep the engine rotating." He does not transmit any power or torque to the clutch; instead, he simply doesn't shut off and maintains the engine's speed.
For 4-cylinder TDI engines, a general rule of thumb is to use 45 Nm of torque, while for 6-cylinder TDI engines, it's 60 Nm.

See also:
/viewtopic.php?t=25613&highlight=inner+moment
and
/viewtopic.php?t=15625&highlight=torque+measurement+block

teileklaus wrote:

One person writes that it doesn't matter to the engine control unit if you tell it that the mass airflow sensor (MAF) is reading "850 mg instead of 780," because the power is still limited by the torque limits; the next person says: "The torque limit is linked to the mass airflow values, and the torque limitation also increases.

"
I don't see any mention of the latter anywhere, and the torque limitation based on the gearbox torque is only dependent on the ambient pressure as a relevant parameter.
The torque limit, which is controlled by the air mass (and in some cases, boost pressure), is set so high that replacing the mass airflow sensor (MAF sensor) would be a waste of money.

Klaus, forget about the LMM issue, it's fine as it is. And it's quite certain that nothing has been modified or "tuned."

Best regards, Rainer.

"You mean, mine isn't the standard version?"
Sure, I did ask Rainer about it before, but there's nothing, absolutely nothing, no deals to be had, neither then nor now.
I guess nothing will change because of the inquiries, right?
Here, on the Neckar River, we are approximately 159.86 meters above sea level.
I bought it with 50,000 km on the odometer from a frequent driver as a lease return.
If he had been performing better back then, I would have noticed.
It took a lot of effort to reach 190, but from 170, it was almost as tough as it is today.
I'm not sure about the other 2-liter A4 model with the 1050 mg/H specification.
Okay, I'll take a look.
We can simply describe it as a car with approximately 150,000 km on the odometer, and if it feels sluggish with only 105 horsepower, that's just how it is. Maybe there's something to adjust on the turbocharger if that's the issue, but even when I changed the timing belt at 120,000 km, there was no noticeable change in performance, although I expected there might be. The engine was originally tuned for naturally aspirated operation.
I'll revert the LMM changes if it doesn't make a difference.

like you mean mine isn't standard?
Sure, I did ask Rainer about it before, but there was absolutely nothing, not then and not later.
I guess nothing will change because of the inquiries, right?
I bought it with 50,000 km from a heavy user who was using it as a lease return solution.
If he had been performing better back then, I would have noticed.
It took a lot of effort to reach 190, but at 170, it was almost as tough as it is today.
I'm not sure about the other 2-liter A4 model with the 1050 lb-ft of torque.
Okay, I'll take a look inside.

Either I'm stupid, or Volkswagen is.

How do you conclude that it should demand over 300 Nm in terms of smoke limitation and driver request, given only 105 hp in its STANDARD state?
And then (so to speak) pure limitation based on the torque curve?

The car has a maximum torque of 250 Nm for its 105 horsepower.
'Your request specifies a torque of up to 330 Nm within the emission limits, which is significantly higher than the 300 Nm requested by the driver (although this higher value might still be acceptable).'

But is the smoke limit 330NM factory-programmed? I can hardly imagine that.

Based on the data in the log, at the observed RPM, the engine would have a programmed torque potential of approximately 280 Nm at its lowest output setting.

So, easily 30 NM above the factory specification? I don't think that should be normal?

But who knows what the people at VW were thinking.


Even the very high limit of 338 Nm for air mass is perfectly normal for this engine.

Perhaps it would be better to book a tuning course instead of making assumptions... Or simply buy such a car and try it out yourself. icon_razz.gif

Please just explain to us how you see the matter, and above all, why.

See above.

If these high values are considered 'normal,' then I would be very surprised. But nothing is impossible, or as they say .

mullemaus wrote:

Either I'm stupid

I'll just say this: If you can dish it out, you also need to be able to take it.

I'll take a look, it doesn't cost anything. You can say thank you.

Part number 03G 906 016 CD, software version 6246.

See attachments. It appears the car is in its original, stock condition. When you click on the log with KDataScope, you can also see the log values.

Alternatively, you can use a KPower dynamometer to measure the power output, which should also result in approximately 105 horsepower +/- 5%. As I said, everything is included in the VCDS-Plus (VCDS RKS) installation package; you just need to read the manual and use the programs.

Mullemaus wrote:

Quote:

The limitation in torque is due to the lack of air mass.

Noooo!
That would be the smoking restriction, sir! The torque limitation is programmed specifically for each motor and is primarily a function of the speed.
hg
Herbert.

And another thing: Since the mass airflow sensor (MAF) is solely responsible for the EGR system here, a new MAF sensor with higher readings would simply lead to an increased exhaust gas recirculation rate.

Same here. As long as the throttle valve isn't causing unwanted behavior within the smoke suppression system, a low LMM (lambda-controlled mass airflow) value doesn't have any disadvantages, but rather reduces the formation of diesel soot in the intake manifold.
Sure, here's the translation:

"Best regards."
Herbert.

Just a side note: with a constant intake manifold pressure and increasing engine speed, the cylinder filling decreases. Why? - Because the absolute opening duration of the intake valve decreases (in milliseconds), while the inertia of the incoming air remains constant.
This leaves less time to accelerate the air column in the intake manifold, which means less air enters the cylinder. Alternatively, the same amount of air requires a higher flow rate at high engine speeds, which increases flow losses.

As the rotational speed increases, the radial swirl also becomes stronger (ignoring the effect of swirl flaps in this case), and this swirl must draw its kinetic energy from somewhere.

Similarly, in many engines, the boost pressure is reduced at the top end to prevent the turbocharger from over-spinning, which also results in a decrease in cylinder filling.

Therefore, it is not surprising that the air mass per cycle already decreases before reaching Pmax.

Quote:

As long as the Zosse is not working unintentionally within the smoke containment area,

... that reminds me of my LMM... and that I wanted to replace it at some point.

m;