R5TDI Ölverbrauch / anderes Öl? | Posts 16+

Here http://www.tuneline.at/news/detail.asp?start=59 at least, there is nothing that indicates any special claims.
It is clear that 504.00/507.00 does not represent the optimum, and the exclusive focus on 5W30 is, at the very least, debatable. On the other hand, a synthetic base, as used in (all?) 506.01 oils, does not automatically make it a top-quality oil; the overall formulation is what matters.
I simply don't consider an oil with a reduced HTHS viscosity to be the optimal solution, even if in individual cases the requirements of the 506.01 specification might be so far exceeded that there is hardly any difference compared to an oil that just barely meets the 507.00 specification, aside from the ash content.

Hi,

Quote:

Who says that 50601 is a worse oil? It is not, in fact!

Could someone please list the positive properties of an oil that meets the 50601 specification, compared to an oil that meets the 50700 specification? I've briefly summarized the negative properties below.

negative:
- Reduced HTHS value of less than 3.5 (typically between 2.8 and 3.0).
- low kinematic viscosity (below 10 mm²/s)


positive:
+ fully synthetic / low evaporation rate
+ Low kinematic viscosity --> reduced internal friction --> reduced fuel consumption.

All engine manufacturers have now discontinued the use of oils with the reduced HTHS (High-Temperature High-Shear) value. While Ford still approves these oils, it is not exclusively. Furthermore, Ford authorized service centers often deliberately use oils with a normally high HTHS value.

I have never read or heard a justification for why oil meeting the 50700 specification should not be used in V10 TDI and R5 TDI engines manufactured before 6/2006. And that's something that I would be really very interested in understanding.

Quote:

I had already thought about that BEFORE. However, I still don't understand why timing chain sprockets need special oil. Or is there some kind of friction-based damping mechanism inside that becomes ineffective due to too many friction reducers?

That's the argument presented in the wrong order! A friction-based damper would perform worse with an oil meeting the 50601 standard, because oils meeting the 50700 standard have a higher internal friction.

Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"

@Bertil:

Quote:

Lubricant manufacturers don't just write those things down for fun.

It's strange, but for example, Castrol states that their oil, which meets the VW 50700 standard, should not be used in 3- and 4-cylinder common-rail diesel engines without a water injection system. Liqui-Moly, on the other hand, does not have this restriction.

Either this restriction applies to both oils, or to neither! Clearly, something is incorrect in at least one of the cited data sheets.

Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"

Mephisto wrote:

.... Liqui-Moly does not have this restriction. ...

So, that's how I interpret it...

Application: Specifically developed for gasoline and diesel vehicles of the Audi and VW group. LIQUI MOLY also recommends this product for vehicles in which the Volkswagen standards 500 00 / 501 01 / 502 00 / 505 00 / 505 01 / 503 00 / 503 01 / 506 00 and 506 01 (except for R5 and V10 TDI engines produced before 6/2006) are required.


I've mentioned something similar before... please read above!

Mephisto wrote:

... Could someone please list the positive properties of an oil that meets the 50601 specification compared to an oil that meets the 50700 specification? I've briefly summarized the negative properties below. negative: - Reduced HTHS value of less than 3.5 (typically between 2.8 and 3.0). - low kinematic viscosity (below 10 mm²/s) ....

If you assume that these are exclusively negative qualities, then there's no point in continuing the discussion.
It seems you can't imagine that there are engines that require these very characteristics. Therefore, these characteristics are anything but negative.

That's all I can tell you about it for now.

Hi,

Quote:

I mentioned something similar above already... please read!

I read that, BUT: Castrol, in addition to what Liqui-Moly states, also lists all 3-cylinder and 4-cylinder PD engines without a wastegate internal control (WIV).
Quite the opposite: LM states that the 50700 oil was developed for engines for which oil meeting the 50501 standard was previously required. And these are the 4-cylinder common-rail diesel engines without a water injection system.

Quote:

If you assume that these are exclusively negative characteristics, there is no point in continuing the discussion.

Have you read what's written under "positive"? I'm somehow bothered by the negative tone of your response.

Quote:

It seems you can't imagine that there are engines that require these very characteristics. Therefore, these characteristics are anything but negative.

Well, in Formula 1, oils similar to SAE20 are used. Here, the low kinematic viscosity is used to extract every last horsepower.


Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"

Quote:

In addition to what Liqui-Moly specifies, Castrol also includes all 3- and 4-cylinder PD engines without a wastegate internal valve.

"Could you please tell me the difference between:"


LIQUI MOLY also recommends this product for vehicles that meet the Volkswagen standards ... 506 01 (with the exception of R5 and V10 TDI engines produced before 6/2006) .

and

Castrol EDGE 5W-30 can be used in almost all VW engines. Exception: R5 and V10 TDI pump-injector engines, as well as 3- and 4-cylinder pump-injector engines without LongLife service.

Simply put... Both oils have different approvals for the 50700 standard. Castrol has none, while LM has many.

The LM oil is approved for use with the 50601 (with the exception of R5 and V10 TDI engines produced before 6/2006) and 50501, in addition to the 50700, while the Castrol is exclusively a 50700 oil. This automatically excludes its use in vehicles with the 50501 specification (i.e., without the Longlife interval). The Castrol specification "3- and 4-cylinder pump-injector engines without LongLife service" is therefore superfluous.

Please do not implement anything into a specification that is not explicitly stated there. Neither Volkswagen nor the oil manufacturers generally approve of 50700 oils as a replacement for 50501 or 50601 oils.

LM has additionally certified Top Tec 4200 for the VW 50601 standard, with the exception of R5 and V10 TDI engines produced before 6/2006. Castrol, on the other hand, did not obtain this certification, meaning the oil does not have either the 50601 or the 50501 approval.


EDIT:

Quote:

I'm somewhat bothered by the negative tone in your answer.

This isn't a negative attitude. I just don't want to "explain color to the blind" and end up saying more than I'm allowed to.

Please don't misunderstand, but I have some information that I'm not allowed to disclose. There are certain things you just have to stop talking about.

This is nothing against you!

Hi,

The difference is quite simple: unlike LM, Castrol excludes 3- and 4-cylinder PD engines from being compatible with the 50700 product.

To the best of my knowledge, the idea of an additional certification is incorrect. Either an oil meets the requirements for approval, or it doesn't. If the requirements are met, then the approval is granted; otherwise, it is not.

Both oils are exclusively approved according to VW 50700.

But I think I now know the key issue: Assuming that VW had never officially announced the backward compatibility of the 50700 standard, then the following applies:

1.) LM assumes (without having obtained manufacturer approval for this) that the 50700 would meet standard 50601 (of course, except for the reduced HTHS value).

2.) Castrol adheres closely to Volkswagen's manufacturer specifications: 50700 is officially not backward-compatible and, therefore, should not be used in vehicles that do not have equipment for Warm Idle Vibration (WIV).

VW itself is one of the manufacturers on the market that has the most confusing approval processes and, in my opinion, formulates the most pointless oil standards.
What is the purpose of specifying the viscosity grade in the standards?


Regards,
Micha.


Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"

Mephisto wrote:

... To the best of my knowledge, the idea of an additional certification is incorrect. Either an oil meets the requirements for approval, or it doesn't. If the requirements are met, then the approval is granted; otherwise, it is not. Both oils are exclusively approved according to VW 50700.

You are right. I had been shifted to the wrong column in my table. That's why I made the statement that LM had the 50601.

That, of course, makes my previous statement INCORRECT!

Quote:

But I think I now know where the crux of the matter lies: Assuming that VW had never officially announced the backward compatibility of 50700, then the following applies: 1.) LM assumes (without having obtained manufacturer approval for this) that the 50700 would meet standard 50601 (of course, except for the reduced HTHS value). 2.) Castrol adheres closely to Volkswagen's manufacturer specifications: 50700 is officially not backward-compatible, and therefore cannot be used in vehicles that do not have equipment for Warm Idle Vibration (WIV).

Consent

Quote:

VW itself is one of the manufacturers on the market that has the most confusing approval processes and, in my opinion, formulates the most pointless oil standards.

VW has the fewest oil specifications. There are other companies on the market that offer better products in this regard.

Even though you may not be allowed to say everything, a 506.01 is still thicker than a 507.00, even with a reduced viscosity during the warm-up phase. The engine should be able to handle that, just like an oil change, or cold oil being added to a warm engine. Are you sure that the underlying reasons are truly technical and not of a political nature?
The wording on oil manufacturers' websites should always be taken with a grain of salt, as the marketing department is usually responsible for the content, rather than the development department. Somewhere along the line, every oil is described as being of particularly high quality and durable, even the 15W40 at the lower end of the product range.

Hi,

Quote:

Even with a reduced viscosity during the warm-up phase, a 506.01 is still thicker than a 507.00

.
That can't be right! All oils labeled "50601" are 0W oils, while all oils labeled "50700" are 5W oils. Therefore, the viscosity of the "50700" oils is consistently HIGHER during a cold start!

Quote:

I had shifted in the column of my table.

It's okay. In some manufacturer's datasheets, you even have to read carefully to distinguish between official approvals and the manufacturer's opinion.

Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"

Yes, I was somehow involved with HTHS.

However, I maintain that, in practice, an engine must be able to cope with different temperatures and, consequently, vastly different viscosities, unlike, for example, the bearings in a power plant turbine.
In the Zahrad model, which is important for EP calculations, the results are actually slightly better for the 504.00/507.00 configuration compared to the 506.01 configuration.

Hello everyone.

The thread is quite old, but some new insights have emerged in the meantime that I would like to add, as I couldn't find a definitive conclusion here.

On the VW T5 forum, there are reports of various cases of incorrect oil being used (VW507.00 LL3 instead of VW506.01 LL2) in AXE/AXD (R5TDI) engines, which has led to major engine damage (worn camshaft, damaged engine mounts).

I think that since the R5 TDI engine was probably the most common engine used in the VW T5, it's quite representative.

Unfortunately, there were also many cases where even the certified guild filled the bottles with the wrong juice .

In summary:
R5 TDI engines produced before the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) generation (models AXE/AXD) always require lubricant specification VW506.01, which is LL2.

Greetings.