TSI instead of TDI

Hello everyone,
I've decided to order the smaller TSI engine, among other things because of my experiences with my TDIs (most recently the 130PS ASZ/ERF). I believe that the TSIs represent a paradigm shift in the field of gasoline engines, just as the TDIs did when they first appeared.
Keyword: 'DIESOTTO', which is a combination of the advantages of OTTO (gasoline) and DIESEL.
I wanted to specifically ask here if anyone who previously worked at an ASZ (presumably a company or organization) has switched to BLG or BMY, and can share their impressions and experiences, especially when comparing these two engines/companies/products.
I'm definitely going to give it a try, and I'm optimistic that things will turn out better.
I know that the choice of motor depends on various factors, so I'll list my MOST IMPORTANT criteria, roughly in order of priority:
- Consumption
- Performance
- Torque
-Environment/Pollutants
- Power-to-torque ratio.
- Running culture
- 'Performance' (acceleration, top speed, etc.)
- (Price)
- Costs (insurance/taxes/timing belt, etc./inspection...)
-Future potential / innovative technology.

For example, something that simply doesn't matter to me is:
- Resale value
-if such a thing as a "durability issue" even existed with the TSI engine.
- Complex technology
- Probability of failure

I will be running both programs concurrently for the time being, as long as the ASZ still offers them.
What recently shocked me was the news that VW is discontinuing the PD (PDK) transmission, because they couldn't and can't cultivate it, something I know all too well from my own experience. However, I also know from my own experience that the power-to-consumption ratio was probably unbeatable, or perhaps it's more accurate to say, *was*. I would be very interested in hearing both objective and subjective impressions and experiences, especially when compared to the TSI.

Sure, no problem.

Regards,
Thomas, soon not just a TDI enthusiast and driver, but also a TSI owner, with a growing preference for TSI engines ('Back to OTTO').

Golf+TSI 140 wrote:

I believe that TSIs represent a paradigm shift in the field of gasoline engines, similar to what happened with diesel engines when TDIs emerged.

Hi,

While I'm not planning to switch, for me, a paradigm shift would mainly be reflected in the consumption figures, when compared to older engines of similar power in similarly heavy vehicles.
Perhaps you could post some relevant data sometime, for the 140 and 170 horsepower TSI engines, and also for the older 1.8T engines with 150 and 180 horsepower.

Quote:

For example, something like simply doesn't matter to me: - Resale value -if such a thing as a "durability issue" even existed with the TSI engine. -complicated technology - failure probability

Bravo, VAG needs more enthusiastic and free test drivers like that .
I'm rooting for you, hoping you'll still say that with full conviction after ~200,000 km - but that, in my opinion, implies that the TSI engine is at least not a poorly made product that fails prematurely (rots on the customer).
Or do you always get rid of your new cars before any potential problems arise?

While I'm not planning to switch, for me, a paradigm shift would mainly be reflected in the consumption figures, when compared to older engines of similar power in similarly heavy vehicles.
Perhaps you could post some relevant data sometime, for the 140 and 170 horsepower TSI engines, and also for the older 1.8T engines with 150 and 180 horsepower.



Hello Ulf,

I see it a bit differently.
The efficiency of the TSI has not changed significantly. Simply by minimizing the load, you shift the utilized load range, which, in a standard cycle, results in a reduction of energy consumption values.

At full load, the TSI engine will consume the same amount of fuel as a similarly powerful 1.8T engine.
So, essentially, the driving techniques you learn in driving schools are implemented in the 'hardware' of the system.

Please don't misunderstand me, I think this technology is good, and I had similar ideas back in the mid-90s.
However, this is not a technological revolution, unlike the TDI engine, which significantly improved efficiency. Therefore, I don't see a replacement of diesel technology with these gasoline engines.
At least, the same technology will soon be found in diesel engines, where the significantly better efficiency of diesel in terms of fuel consumption will once again become apparent.

Best regards, Jochen.

Oh man, if you're complaining about the discontinuation of PD engines, then don't speculate about the reasons.

I personally drive an ASZ ERF and haven't been disappointed with it so far. Sure, you can have good luck and bad luck, and I still have 4,000 kilometers to go before I reach 100,000 kilometers.

The 1.4 TSI is a nice thing, no question about it. It has low taxes. So far, I've only driven it for 2 days. It's fun in the lower speed range, but it becomes very sluggish at higher speeds. On my test routes, it was never possible to reach the stated top speed. Due to the admittedly fast driving style, fuel consumption is extremely high.

Jochen_145 wrote:

The efficiency of the TSI has not fundamentally changed. Simply by minimizing, you achieve a shift in the utilized load range, which in a standard cycle results in a reduction of consumption values. . . Therefore, essentially, the driving techniques you learn in driving schools are implemented in "hardware".

*gg* Nice analogy.
However, regardless: in my opinion, the end justifies the means to some extent. If the 1.4 TSI consumes even slightly less fuel than the 1.8 TSI, especially when considering real-world driving conditions, then it initially has the advantage in terms of numbers.

Quote:

However, this is not a technological revolution, like the TDI engine once was, which significantly increased efficiency. Therefore, I also do not see a replacement of diesel technology by these gasoline engines.

Unfortunately, the efficiency of new TDIs is artificially reduced by the politically imposed DPF nonsense, bringing them closer to gasoline engines .
(I'm so glad I managed to buy one of the last relatively fuel-efficient fun-to-drive TDIs just in time ).

Just as a side note, a gasoline engine will never achieve the same level of efficiency as a diesel engine, primarily due to the difference in compression ratios.

I'm very happy with my 125kW TSI engine so far.
The engine fascinated me from the very beginning.
Before, I drove a car with a 74kW ATD engine for 4 years.
The fuel consumption has increased by 1.5 liters per 100 kilometers under comparable driving conditions.
My GT has 7,000 kilometers on the odometer.
This is nowhere near what you would expect from a long-term test.
I really hope the engine will last for "quite some time."

LG
Maxx.

mserge wrote:

Just as a side note, a gasoline engine will never achieve the same efficiency as a diesel engine, simply because of the compression ratio.

While that's generally true, compression isn't everything: If you systematically choke a superior engine in the exhaust system, eventually even physical limitations can equalize things... see above.

Hello Ulf,

It's very important to understand that I'm not interested in a debate about which engine is "better," or a competition between TSI and TDI engines, or in claiming that the TSI is great and the TDI is bad. There are only advantages and disadvantages of different concepts and their real-world implementation. The TSI engine, just like any other engine, will have its own strengths and weaknesses. I'm interested in people's, even subjective, experiences of making the same change as I'm about to make (from 130TDI to 140TSI), and hearing about it from those who have already done it.
Regarding things that are not important to me:
This is to be understood in the following way.
-Resale value is low because I drive my cars until they're scrap (including the TSI), not because the resale value is inherently bad.
- Durability/technology: this is a false debate. I remember the exact same discussion when TDIs were introduced: would it really work out well? And today, no one talks about the durability of turbocharged diesel engines with complex technology anymore. And as a TDI driver or any other type of driver, you are just as much a test driver as a TSI driver. I would much rather consciously embrace something new that is under particularly close public scrutiny.

@matthiasTDI96:
It's not me who's stopping the production of PD engines, but VW. The reasons are actually quite irrelevant to me; I've just had certain experiences that align 100% with the majority of drivers, and this applies primarily to TDI drivers, not those with other types of engines. Anyone can find out about the official reasons, but everyone has to form their own opinions about the unofficial ones. You can call it unloading, but you don't have to.
I didn't say I was disappointed with my TDI. You're interpreting things. Why, I wonder?
Okay, I will just translate what you write.

Regards,
Thomas.

Golf+TSI 140 wrote:

I still remember the exact same discussion when the TDIs came out: whether it would actually work? -

Hello Thomas,

If you remember those discussions, you probably also remember the early production runs that were riddled with teething problems (for example, I'm just mentioning 1Z -> KW's ZR wheel, AJM -> piston pin)?

Quote:

and today, no one talks anymore about the durability of diesel engines with complex technology.

. . . because the models prone to breakdowns are becoming extinct, or mostly only the engines that have been perfected for true long-term durability are still running

Quote:

And as a TDI driver or any other type of driver, you are just as much a test driver as a TSI driver.

But as a "late and refined buyer," you are significantly less so than the first test pilots.

Quote:

I would much rather consciously embrace a new endeavor that is under particularly public scrutiny.

As I said: People like you are needed so that new technologies can truly mature -> thank you for your selfless dedication.
My nerves are too valuable to be unnecessarily strained by the (likely) quirks of immature technologies.

If, however, the TSI were to become as reliable as the ASZ at some point, and the fuel consumption of the diesel engines that would then be available (with a similar driving experience) were to be brought down to the level of gasoline engines thanks to aggressive emissions controls, then I might also buy a TSI, and I would secretly thank you (and Maxx) as an old pioneer of testing .

Okay, I understand. You're providing reasons. It doesn't matter.

I tried to write down my experiences.
I think the concept is great, and I'm happy that VW is taking a chance. I'm also glad that there are buyers interested.
Unfortunately, the engine doesn't quite suit my driving style, even though, and this is a fact, it runs much more smoothly than the PD engine. However, it consumes an extremely large amount of fuel during fast highway driving, which is a frequent part of my driving profile. In my daily commutes, where I try to achieve low fuel consumption, it (admittedly only in two trips) consumed 1.6 and 1.8 liters more than the PD engine. Of course, this is not representative, as the driving conditions were not the same. The value was only read using multi-factor authentication.

Hello Ulf,

Although I didn't really want to discuss this, I feel compelled to say something about the story about the test pilots, because, frankly, it bothers me, especially the way you presented it.
TDI drivers (and I am, and will remain, one myself) seem to react somewhat allergically to the TSI, probably because they sense competition (and rightly so).
Sometimes, for reasons that may be more or less esoteric, the product that is *bought* prevails in the market, rather than the objectively better one (VHS vs. Beta, Intel processors vs. others, Windows vs. other operating systems, etc.). For various reasons, and fortunately (from today's perspective), the diesel engine didn't experience the same fate as the Wankel engine. I, and probably you, and many modern diesel mechanics who work with high kW numbers, would certainly never have bought a diesel before the TDI era, but other people did (not just pioneers).
Unfortunately, the eta engines (even the name hints at their power) from BMW suffered a similar fate. They were introduced at the wrong time. They were upsized gasoline engines, not optimized for performance, but rather with a large displacement and a torque/RPM characteristic similar to diesels, offering potential for fuel economy and relatively good emissions. However, no one (except us) bought them, so it ended. This is similar to the PD (direct injection) technology, but for different reasons, even though certain people are now trying to revive it. BMW could have had a real powerhouse today if they had consistently developed this concept further.
Luckily, people are buying LCD and plasma screens, otherwise we would all be stuck watching tube televisions forever. It's not enough to simply acknowledge that there are pioneers; I believe that, otherwise, Ulf, you wouldn't be driving a TDI today.
By the way, I was also a pioneer and test driver with my 110 HP VEP TDI, which ran absolutely perfectly from the first day (referring to the aforementioned discussion about the durability of TDIs) until I reached 180,000 km when the PD injector failed. Again, I became a pioneer and test driver, experiencing vibrations from the first day, and at 22,000 km, after a persistent battle with VW, I received a new engine that vibrated less, but still within a normal range (this is not my statement, but that of the VW inspectors). The 2.0 TDI PD, which is supposedly "mature," still vibrates and rattles, and is now being replaced with a CR (common rail) engine, which apparently offers better performance in terms of pressure and emissions. Interestingly, the PD engine's demise was not due to low sales figures, as evidenced by the official and unofficial reasons. I think the pros and cons of PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) are actually quite good, especially when considering the power/performance ratio, and once you get used to the cons, or simply don't find them to be that bad.
And now I'm once again a pioneer and test pilot, and I hope that this time I haven't bought any brand-new models like the VEP TDI (AHF) and PD TDI (ASZ), which were produced for about 2-7 years and then discontinued, but that the TSI concept will be more successful and as reliable as my test VEP or PD TDI engines, whose technology unfortunately became obsolete after just a few years.
My gut feeling and my reasoning tell me: buy TSI. It was the same with the TDIs, and I think that was a good thing.
I can only hope, and I think that people won't be overly worried (or let others worry for them) and will simply buy the thing, especially once the benefits become clear. Its fate will depend on that, not on whether it has the same teething problems as the TDIs. I'm already tired of the whole diesel emissions debate, and I drive around in my innovative 1.4L gasoline TSI engine with a Lambda=1 setting, catalytic converters, turbocharger, intercooler, maintenance-free chain drive, variable valve timing, cast iron cylinder block, steel crankshaft, Duo-Centronic oil pump, dual-circuit cooling system, demand-based fuel system, open-deck cylinder block, piston cooling, sodium-filled exhaust valves, high-pressure fuel pump, etc."I and many others have to either leave our ASZ (air conditioning system) units as they are, or pay hundreds of euros (which is justified) to have certain filters installed."

Despite everything, I still (currently) support my PD TDI .

Regards,
Thomas.

By the way: The piston pin diameter was increased from 17 to 19 mm due to the high ignition pressure of the TSI. This is one of many modifications made to the TSI, and it seems they may have learned from testing data originally gathered for TDI engines and applied it to the TSI.

Golf+TSI 140 wrote:

Although I didn't really want to discuss this, I feel compelled to say something about the test pilot story, as it genuinely bothers me, at least the way you presented it.

Why is it worth getting upset about other people's opinions? Does my perspective somehow harm you?

Quote:

By the way: The piston pin diameter was increased from 17 to 19 mm due to the high ignition pressure of the TSI, one of many modifications made to the TSI. It seems they also learned from TDI test driver feedback when developing the TSI...

I see it differently: If we had truly learned from the TDI era, why weren't the TSIs introduced starting with the 1st generation? Was ist die Bedeutung von "Exemplar mit 19 mm-Bolzen gebaut?"

Built with 19mm bolts?
Or did various voluntary/involuntary TSI test pioneers also experience engine damage that, according to theoretical calculations, should not have occurred?
-> Congratulations, if you ordered yours late enough and are getting the 19mm version .

Hello Thomas,

It's not true that no one is talking about the reliability of TDI engines here.

"In the past, diesel engines were slow but durable. This is where the experience comes from that a diesel engine lasts longer than a gasoline engine. Today's TDI engines, with their small displacement, are kept running with an incredibly high level of technical complexity." It's naive to believe that this would have absolutely no impact on durability and reliability.

The TSI is a technical masterpiece and will definitely be a lot of fun to drive. I'd like to have one too, but only while it's still under warranty. As he gets older, due to its rarity, there will likely be no used parts available, meaning that even a seemingly insignificant control unit could quickly become a reason to decommission the vehicle, costing anywhere from 2000 to a very high amount of euros.

In my opinion, this is something for young urban professionals with a lot of money, who treat the car more as a hobby and don't really need it.

That's why I recently got rid of my TDI; I bought a very simple (old) gasoline-powered car. There are no parts on this engine that I couldn't afford to replace, and it will easily reach 300,000 kilometers without any problems. The only sad thing is that I miss the brutal torque of the TDI, but I'll get used to it (have to).

I wish you lots of fun and minimal trouble with your new TSI!

Hello Ulf,

No, your perspective doesn't harm me, because I'm someone who seeks and finds my own decisions based on mostly objective and rational grounds. However, it might potentially influence other prospective buyers of the TSI who might be swayed by such concerns, viewpoints, arguments, or whatever you want to call them, and ultimately decide against buying the TSI. And that damages the TSI concept.
Resentment, incidentally, arises subconsciously and not as a result of a rational consideration of whether it is worth it or not. It usually occurs when one feels unfairly treated, and it always causes harm.
It's actually exactly as you requested; the larger piston pin diameter was conceived in the design phase and implemented from the very first production unit. Maxx1278 also has it, just like the 140 and 170 horsepower versions. Incidentally, the fact that the mechanics of the 170PS TSI are identical to those of the 140PS TSI (with only a software difference), along with the fact that the 170PS version wasn't even offered as a "Tour Edition," was a reason to choose the 140PS version. In other words, if it's designed to work with 170PS, then the 140PS version is on the safe side. Furthermore, official sources indicate that the concept is also suitable for significantly more power, and VW is playing it safe with 170PS, just as they did with the power increases in the TDIs. If the TSI engine is adopted, it is certain that there will be performance improvements and other engine displacements (both smaller and larger).
In that context, a question for you: Didn't you yourself become a test driver, pushing your engine to its limits with power and pressure?!

Okay, I'll just say this one more time: You asked for user experiences. Unfortunately, my experience is extremely limited, only about 400 km. You don't address this at all, but instead try to justify your decision to buy the TSI. We don't care what you drive; everyone should choose what they like, and that's how it should be. In every one of your replies (directly or indirectly), you accuse me of being completely stuck in the past with the TDI, and you try to dismiss Ulf's ideas. You're throwing all the engine components you've ever heard of or read about into the mix, the ones that define the TSI, and you're adding fuel to the fire for the critics.

I don't see any progress here, so I'm opting out.

PS: If you're investing so much in the future, pay attention to the CO2 emissions of the engines even when buying today, because there might be changes to the tax system... Sustainability and climate protection mean a low CO2 value... Innovation leading to DPFs!