Function NHG and other nozzles

Hello,

I've already searched the entire archive, but I haven't found anything specific.
Sure, please provide the text you would like me to translate from German to English.
I would like to install the 216 injectors from a Caravelle TDI engine into my AFN engine.
Has anyone done this before?
I'm already aware that the idle speed is increasing. What about the injection duration? Does the engine control unit (ECU) detect that different injectors (specifically, the 216 injectors) have been installed, and does it potentially shorten the injection duration? Are there any issues with the pistons? Tell me something about it!

Greetings,

Maciek.

Hello,

The engine control unit (almost) doesn't detect the larger injectors, so the fuel injection pump is controlled in the same way as before.
The problem of excessive fuel injection at idle might potentially be resolved using the DIY anti-limp mode solution from the error database.
IMHO, replacing the nozzles isn't worthwhile unless you need new ones anyway. If one wants to take advantage of the increased power potential offered by the larger nozzles, a whole string of further, expensive modifications will be necessary (turbocharger, compression reduction, intercooler, clutch, transmission).
Certainly, it means having a less reliable engine and a car without the necessary approval (ABE). The cost of a required emissions test report is extremely high.
Did you manage to save anything towards a car replacement with a TDI engine producing 130/150 horsepower?

I don't know anyone here in the forum who has the larger nozzles installed.

If you decide to change the nozzle, please share your objective experiences, without any further modifications to the control unit or other alterations.
Engine running condition, smoke emission, fuel consumption, power output (if necessary, through a dynamometer test).

Best regards, Rainer.

Hello everyone,

The discussion about using 216 nozzles instead of 205 or 184 nozzles keeps coming up.
I installed the nozzles two months ago.

Installation was not a problem. Simply remove the plastic cover, unscrew the complete diesel injection lines, unscrew the holders for the injectors, and pull out the injectors (in my case, they were a bit stuck - I had to turn the injectors slightly to the left and right with a 13mm wrench to loosen them).
Then insert the new nozzles, connect the NHG (presumably a specific type of connector), and you're done.

The engine runs normally, with only a slightly noticeable increase in its rated speed.

When I ride with my performance chips installed, the estimated increase in horsepower is around +5-8 HP. You can definitely feel that there's more power available.
Along with a chip that already injects more fuel, the Gnaze really starts to perform exceptionally well.

Now (and only now!!) does Rainer's statement become relevant:
You need to increase the boost pressure (increasing power to 130 hp requires only increasing the fuel injection amount!), which shortens the lifespan of the engine (turbo, etc.). To avoid reducing the lifespan, you need to reduce the compression ratio, which in turn reduces the power output. To counteract the loss of performance, a larger LLK (likely referring to a liquid cooling system) is installed... a vicious cycle.

I recently had a switch chip installed. Without a chip, approximately 120 horsepower; with a chip, approximately 150 horsepower. So, you can access this significant increase in power with the push of a button (though you rarely need it, right?).

Best regards, Jens.

rotesI wrote:

The engine then runs normally, with a

barely noticeable increase in the rated speed.

Hi Jens,

Normally, the engine control unit (ECU) regulates the idle speed very stably. If an increase cannot be avoided with the larger nozzles, then the control system must be working very hard...

Do you have access to VAGCOM? If so, it would be interesting to know the "alleged" injection amount and the start of injection at idle.
That would probably allow us to say more about the changes that EDC nozzles "experience" compared to conventional nozzles.

What kind of engine do you have?

Hi,

@rotesI.

Quote:

To avoid reducing this lifespan, one must perform a compaction reduction...

Why does it absolutely have to be this way?
When I browse the articles on Tuneline, it seems that the compression reduction achieved by using a thicker head gasket only becomes noticeable starting at 180 horsepower and above. However, some other changes had already been made beforehand.

Here's my thought process: If tuners can achieve up to 150 horsepower or more with a standard engine by simply modifying the engine maps, wouldn't it be "healthier" for the engine if that extra power were also achieved through, for example, larger injectors? This is because, with larger injectors, you don't necessarily need to inject fuel as early or for as long, which could potentially prevent issues like piston melting.

Something else.

Quote:

When I ride with my performance chips, the estimated increase in power is +5-8 horsepower.

You can definitely feel that there's more power available.

I'm currently using a Wendland auxiliary control unit in my AFN, which, according to the manufacturer, should produce 140 horsepower . When I drive with and without it, you can notice a difference, but it's really very, very small. You have to pay close attention, otherwise it's hardly noticeable. So, first of all, it's definitely not 140 horsepower. The maximum I would estimate is 130 horsepower, but I even doubt that. But even if it were 130 horsepower, that's still 20 horsepower more than in the standard configuration. If I can only conditionally notice these 20 horsepower, how would I notice 5 or 8 horsepower? Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that what you wrote is incorrect, I'm just wondering where the flaw is in my reasoning.
I specifically had my girlfriend, who is a neutral person, drive the car, both with and without the control unit, and her comment was simply that the car felt a bit faster, nothing more. Because, in principle, you can compare them. No maps for torque or turbo pressure or anything else are being altered. Both are only about the amount of diesel fuel.

Regarding soot, is there actually a characteristic curve or map for soot formation?

Regards,
Thomas.

Regarding compression reduction:

In a US forum, several people have reported that after installing larger injectors, turbos, and other performance-enhancing parts, the head gasket failed after a short period of time.

Problem:

If more diesel fuel is injected and there is slightly more air present, then, after combustion, there will naturally be more exhaust gases in the cylinder. This can increase the cylinder pressure above the value for which the engine is designed. Normally, the pressure can reach up to 50 bar or even higher.

Hi,

What about exhaust back pressure reduction?
That should help resolve the issue.

Furthermore, with a different turbocharger, likely a VNT17 or even a VNT20, a different ESP, probably a modified VP37 with a slightly larger fuel delivery capacity and additionally adjusted performance maps, these engines likely produce well over 160 or 170 horsepower. Similarly, the torque would likely be approaching 400 Nm.

That can be driven to infinity. How many horsepower does the kit car have?
I believe it had around 247 horsepower. I once met someone who drives a car with a 1Z engine producing 212 horsepower and 560 Nm of torque. There was nothing original left.
But I'm giving up.

I only doubt that a reduction in compression is necessary when using only 0.216-inch nozzles and moderately tuned software. The best-case scenario for me before such a procedure would be to replace the entire head gasket.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Greetings.
Thomas.

Hello everyone,

I have VAGCOM and could already read the injection amount, but: I don't have enough time, and I also don't feel like getting out in -15°C (I don't have a warm garage).
My engine: AFN (1999 Passat 3B).

So, regarding the 5-8 horsepower: that's obviously just an estimate, because the car performs a little better.
However, the difference between 110 hp or 115-118 hp and 130 or 140 hp is quite significant. The turbo kicks in much more strongly at the higher power levels. I suspect something might be wrong, Thomas.
You can email me (jens.hamel@ext.novartis.com) so we can keep the discussion on topic in the forum.

Generally speaking, regarding performance enhancements: reputable tuners (e.g., tuneline.at) offer increases of up to 150 horsepower with the standard engine. However, it's often better to limit the increase to 'only' 130/140 horsepower (until that point, only the fuel injection amount is increased, not the turbo boost) and additionally install larger injectors.
It will be healthier, but it's incredibly annoying.

And to get rid of that problem, we'd be back to square one...

It's quite clear that you can operate your engine without reducing the compression ratio and still achieve 170-180 horsepower – do you really think it will last long like that?
I know someone who installed a VNT17 turbocharger, which is a large turbocharger with large injectors, on their engine without making any other modifications. They're getting around 165 horsepower, and it's been running like that for over a year – but for how much longer?
It would be inconvenient for me, as I rely on my car every day.


Best regards, Jens.

Hi Jens,

First of all, thank you for the offer; I will write to you at some point.

Quote:

In general, regarding performance enhancement: reputable tuners (e.g., tuneline.at) offer up to 150 horsepower with the standard engine. However, it's often better to achieve "only" 130/140 horsepower through chipping (until that point, only the fuel injection amount is increased, not the turbo boost), and additionally install larger injectors. It will be healthier, but it's incredibly annoying.

Back then, before I bought this additional control unit, I inquired with quite a few tuners. They all responded that they also increase the turbocharger pressure, even with 140 horsepower, to prevent what the Russians are doing.

If you only increase the fuel injection amount, you are essentially utilizing the excess air that is normally present in the system. This can be used for...
It likely achieves around 130 horsepower. Increasing the injection amount further causes this excess diesel to produce soot. Larger injectors naturally have the same effect. If you've already increased the injection amount and then use large injectors, the injectors essentially do the same thing as if you were to further extend the injection time. The only way to increase power in this case is to increase the boost pressure, as that provides more air for combustion. In this case, you are right that using these injectors is probably "healthier" than further extending the injection times or injecting even earlier. However, at some point, the pressure inside the cylinder becomes so high that it significantly reduces the lifespan of the engine. Therefore, it might be necessary to reduce the compression ratio. If you then demand even more power and inject more fuel, you simply need a different turbocharger, because the VNT 15 is too small to maintain a pressure of, for example, 1.5 bar continuously. Furthermore, the small, standard intercooler is no longer sufficient to cool the increased amount of air being transported by the turbocharger, so a more powerful model is needed. (I've heard that intercoolers from the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter are popular.) Unfortunately, the power eventually reaches a level that would lead to overloading of the crankshaft and other components.Since the AFN engine also doesn't have a piston with an oil cooling channel, these components would also be unable to withstand the increased demands. As a solution, people resort to forged pistons, trapezoidal connecting rods, titanium crankshafts, and so on. In short, if reducing the compression ratio is necessary to stay within the power limit, it's always a good idea, especially with larger injectors. With those, you can largely prevent premature and excessively long injection times. Whether you achieve 150 horsepower through longer injection times or larger injector sizes is essentially the same thing. However, I think that the chances of experiencing engine damage are higher when running at high power levels with the stock nozzles compared to using the 0.216 nozzles.

Wow, that was more than I actually wanted to write.
Well, if I've forgotten anything important or am completely wrong about something, please correct me.

Quote:

And to get rid of that problem, we would be back to square one...

I want to challenge that statement. If you increase the turbo boost and perhaps slightly reduce the injection time, the soot will definitely disappear. You'll probably have to get it adjusted on a dynamometer, but it's likely that can be done without all the extra hassle.

Quote:

I know someone who installed a VNT17, a large turbocharger, and large injectors on their engine without making any other modifications. They have about 165 horsepower, and it has been running like that for over a year - but for how long? It wouldn't be ideal for me, as I rely on my car every day.

You could observe what happens and post it here.
That would be interesting to see.

Greetings.
Thomas.