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@sindbad

What do the BGB and GG have to do with this?

Your text was offensive and has nothing to do with "freedom of expression."

If you're going to refer to laws, then read them in their entirety.

Your freedom only extends as far as the freedom of others, and "tuning box" users also have a right to be treated with respect (i.e., not to be insulted).

m;

@sindbad

What do the BGB and GG have to do with this?

Your text was offensive and has nothing to do with 'freedom of expression.'

If you're going to refer to laws, then read them in their entirety.

Your freedom only extends as far as the freedom of others, and even 'tuning box' users have a right to be treated with respect (i.e., not to be insulted).

m;

Offensive to whom? When did I personally attack anyone? The hat goes on the person it fits, so what's the point of all this nonsense?

The reference to the BGB (German Civil Code) is meant to represent a similar level of exaggeration as the demand to end this post.

And besides, anyone who has installed or had installed a 'tuning box' in their vehicle has essentially signed their own death warrant; that's beyond question.

Best regards, Sindbad.

Sindbad wrote:

And besides, anyone who has installed or had installed a "tuning box" in their vehicle has gotten themselves into a big mess, and that is beyond question.

Hi,

"I suspect that you are trying to promote chip tuning in some 'subtle' way, but your style doesn't seem particularly helpful because some readers might think, 'Ah, these are arguments from the chip tuning camp: polemics instead of factual information.'"

2. I wonder what kind of "bear" they've saddled me with regarding the power boxes in my former AFN (Armed Forces Network) facility. From the beginning, I was aware that the effect is based on manipulated sensor signals.
It's likely that my automotive service center will also receive a device eventually – one that I know will keep the "active" emissions control systems running for a longer period than the engine computer would allow.

So what? Even if it's a rough-and-ready modification: TÜV (German technical inspection authority) reports are also available for speakers, which means the effect can be measured and controlled with sufficient accuracy.
And I will not blindly entrust myself to any programmer who has to tinker with the highly complex engine control unit (ECU) software, which is supposedly "protected" against manipulation, in order to achieve the desired result.

I much prefer the "chip tuning" method; I can fundamentally understand it completely, and I know exactly what changes I'm making to the system.

Okay, you now have the opportunity to respond to this in a factual manner. But if you post another inflammatory comment, I will close the thread.

'I suspect that you are trying to promote chip tuning in some 'subtle' way, but your style doesn't seem particularly helpful because some readers might think, 'Ah, these are arguments from the chip tuning camp: polemics instead of factual information.''


Have I even mentioned 'chip tuning' in any way?


2. I wonder what kind of 'bear' they've tied to the Powerboxes in my former AFN (Air Force Network). From the beginning, I was aware that the effect is based on manipulated sensor signals.
Furthermore, it is likely that my authorized service center (ASZ) will eventually receive a device that keeps the 'active' parameters of the engine control unit (ECU) open for a longer period than the engine computer would normally allow.

2. As an experienced DIY enthusiast, you've surely seen the inside of a box, any kind of box. Have you ever looked at an electronics catalog and calculated the value of the materials used? You'll see that the connectors are probably the most expensive part, and the material cost is often less than 20 euros. And how much are they sold for? It's pure price gouging – it has no relation to the actual value of the product.
For the simple boxes used with pump-injector engines, only 1 (ONE!) resistor is installed, which causes the EDC (Engine Control Unit) to 'pretend' that the fuel temperature is higher. As a result, the EDC reacts by injecting a larger amount of fuel, leading to a slight increase in power, but under certain circumstances, it can cause excessive fuel richness and heavy soot formation.
It's no longer possible to properly diagnose faults when a 'box' is installed. Furthermore, the factory-specified tolerances are so tight that even minor, unfavorable external factors can quickly cause one or more motors to go into emergency mode.
The durability of the 'boxes' also leaves much to be desired. I often wanted to replace defective boxes, but for some reason, the warranty always seemed to have just expired. This wasn't an isolated incident. The only option would have been to obtain a 'newer' and 'better' box.


So what? Even if it's a rough-and-ready modification: TÜV (German technical inspection authority) reports are also available for speakers, which means the effect can be measured and controlled with sufficient accuracy.
And I will not blindly entrust myself to any programmer who has to tinker with the highly complex engine control unit (ECU) software, which is supposedly 'protected' against manipulation, in order to achieve the desired result.
I much prefer the 'chip tuning' method; I can fundamentally understand it completely, and I know exactly what changes I'm making to the system.


You're one of the few who actually know what they're doing. However, you can't generalize that to everyone who has had a 'tuning box' installed. So far, I've successfully convinced every customer who was using a 'tuning box' that these devices don't deliver what they promise. And once I show the customer the curves for air mass, fuel injection, boost pressure, etc., on the diagram, any remaining doubts are gone.


Okay, you now have the opportunity to respond to this in a factual manner. But if you post another inflammatory comment, I will close the thread.


'...a 'gossip post'??? Do what you can't resist. Build a box for yourself in your ASZ (presumably a local community center or similar) and be happy. I couldn't care less. I have my opinion, and I just wanted to express it here. If someone spends a few hundred euros on something like that, they should be able to expect decent service from the manufacturer. The fact that they're not getting it should at least give someone pause.'


Best regards, Sindbad.

Sindbad wrote:

As an experienced mechanic, you've surely seen the inside of a box, any kind of box, at least once. The material cost is often less than 20 euros. And how much are they sold for? It's pure price gouging – it has no relation to the actual value. For the simple boxes used with pump-nozzle engines, only 1 (ONE!) resistor is installed, which causes the EDC (Engine Control Unit) to "simulate" a higher fuel temperature. As a result, the EDC reacts with a larger injection quantity, leading to a slight increase in power, but under certain circumstances, it can cause excessive fuel richness and heavy soot formation.

Yes, I know all about that... When it comes to tuning, you're not just paying for the materials, but also for the expertise.
Or is the relationship between price and delivered hardware in chip tuning better (especially with OBD tuning )?

Quote:

Furthermore, the factory-specified tolerances are so tight that even with unfavorable external factors, one or the other engine can quickly go into emergency mode.

However, even with (poorly done) chip tuning, you are not protected from this.

Quote:

The durability of the "boxes" also leaves much to be desired...

...and there have also been reports of cold solder joints on the EPROM socket, which apparently were caused by a chip tuner...

Quote:

So far, I have successfully convinced everyone who has come to me with a "box" that these things don't deliver nearly what they promise. And as soon as I show the customer the curves for air mass, fuel injection amount, boost pressure, etc., on the diagram, any remaining doubts are gone.

"These diagrams would be interesting to see. Please email them to me ([email protected]), and I will post them here so that everyone can benefit from them (not everyone here has the ability to post attachments)."
Maybe you'll even convince me before I give my engine the box .
But what exactly are we trying to convince people of? Should they completely avoid tuning, or that chip tuning can be more precise?

Quote:

If someone spends a few hundred euros on such a device, they can reasonably expect decent service from the manufacturer.

The fact that they are met with indifference should at least give someone pause.}
Can you at least make the case more specific so that it's clear which provider is being referred to?

As an experienced mechanic, you've certainly seen the inside of a box, any kind of box. The material cost is often less than 20 euros. And how much are they sold for? It's pure profit-making – it has no relation to the actual value.
For the simple boxes used with pump-nozzle engines, only 1 (ONE!) resistor is installed, which causes the EDC (Engine Control Unit) to be 'tricked' into believing that the fuel temperature is higher. As a result, the EDC reacts with a larger injection quantity, which leads to a slight increase in power, but under certain circumstances, it can cause excessive fuel richness and heavy soot formation.
Yes, I know all of that... When it comes to tuning, you're not just paying for the materials, but also for the expertise.
Or is the relationship between price and delivered hardware in chip tuning better (especially with OBD tuning )?

Furthermore, the factory-specified tolerances are so tight that even with unfavorable external factors, one or the other engine can quickly go into emergency mode.
However, even with (poorly done) chip tuning, you are not protected from this.

The durability of the 'boxes' also leaves much to be desired...
. . . and there have also been reports of cold solder joints on the EPROM socket, which apparently were caused by a chip tuner. . .

So far, I have successfully convinced everyone who has come to me with a 'box' that these things don't deliver nearly what they promise. And at the latest when I show the customer the curves for air mass, fuel injection amount, boost pressure, etc. on the diagram, any remaining doubts are gone.
'These diagrams would be interesting to see. Please email them to me ([email protected]), and I will post them here so that everyone can benefit from them (not everyone here has the ability to post attachments).'
Maybe you'll even convince me before I give my engine the box .
But what exactly are we trying to convince people of? Should they completely avoid tuning, or that chip tuning can be more precise?

If someone spends a few hundred euros on such a device, they can reasonably expect decent service from the manufacturer. The fact that they are met with indifference should at least give someone pause.
Can you at least make the case more specific so that it's clear which provider is being referred to? }

...please let's leave the topic of chip tuning out of this discussion?
However, it is undeniable that there are many unqualified or unprofessional people in this industry.
But I ask you: Surely you don't seriously want to draw a comparison between someone who painstakingly modifies 40 or more parameters in an original file, and someone who uses an 'all-purpose' box with just 4 resistors to control multiple motor variants?

You are portraying chip tuning in a way that is just as dismissive as I am towards 'boxes.' You need to move away from those cheap chips you find on eBay. They are even less valuable than the worst quality boxes, I'll admit that. Your statements refer to sloppy chip tuners, and they are as common as sand on a beach, so what you say is completely true in that regard.

That doesn't change anything about what I said about the 'boxes.'
I will refrain from mentioning a specific provider here. In the thread above, I believe 'dieselcruiser' stated that they are not getting a response from the manufacturer.

Best regards, Sindbad.

Sindbad wrote:

...please, let's leave the topic of chip tuning out of this???

Hm, what are you trying to tell us with that?
"No to boxes, CT shouldn't be mentioned - what else is someone supposed to do who wants more power from their engine?"

Quote:

But I ask you: Surely you don't seriously want to draw a comparison between someone who painstakingly modifies 40 or more fields in an original file, and someone who uses an "all-purpose" box with just 4 resistors for multiple motor variants???

If the chip tuner actually changes so many parameters and does so without causing subsequent problems in everyday use, that is, of course, "much better" than a 10c tuning in a box - and if a real specialist was involved, certainly also better than "good" boxes.
On the other hand, there are also "more sophisticated" enclosures that offer a better overall tuning than a hastily assembled CT system, where the speed and soot limits are simply increased by a blanket 20%.

Quote:

Your statements refer to sloppy chip tuners, and there are many of them, like grains of sand on the beach, and then what you say is completely correct.

See - and what tactics would you recommend to someone interested in tuning who wants to find a good chip tuner, instead of getting stuck in the sandbox?

Regarding my personal project: Do you know any CT specialists who offer a switchable option between standard and tuned performance with TÜV approval?
Apparently, there's something happening in the boxing world, and I'm going to check it out soon.

Chip tuning is, for me, just a way to make money. The file is created once for the engine control unit, and that's it. No further work needs to be put into it after that. Very few chip tuners actually adjust the settings on a dynamometer, and even if they do, it's questionable whether they're actually doing anything other than pretending to work while the car is on the dynamometer.

So far, you haven't presented a real argument against using a tuning box. With a tuning box, you have the possibility to assess the soot levels and see if you're overdoing it. With chip tuning, you can change all parameters in a way that the customer gets impressive performance, but within a few kilometers, the engine could be ruined.

So, what exactly (besides the price and shelf life) speaks against using a box?
Sure, it will never be able to extract power from the engine like a chip, that's obvious.
But if I buy a used branded stereo system, it won't cost a fortune anymore, and I even get the official inspection report for my car sent to me by the manufacturer so I can register the stereo system.
Sure, a simple box is nothing more than basic tuning, but a box that modifies the signal based on boost pressure definitely has more electronics than just a potentiometer.

Oh yeah, why wouldn't a diagnosis be possible with a Box? Just turn it off and it's fine.

Chiptuning, for me, is just a way to make money. The file is created _once_ for the engine control unit, and that's it. Then, no more work needs to be put into it. Very few chiptuners adjust on a dynamometer, and if they do, it's questionable whether they're actually doing anything other than pretending to work while the car is on the dynamometer.


It's only partially true - each customer has specific requests, and the original file is modified accordingly. (I'm talking about reputable tuners, not just any copycats, because in their case, what you said is correct).


So far, you haven't presented a real argument against using a tuning box. With a tuning box, you can at least get a sense of whether you're pushing the limits of the engine's performance, whereas with chip tuning, you can modify all parameters in a way that gives the customer impressive power gains, but also leads to a broken engine within just a few kilometers.


I don't know where you got that information, and frankly, I don't care – believe what you want. I haven't had any reports of engine damage from my customers, and I've had many. And those who came to the yard with a 'box' (referring to a specific type of vehicle or component) are satisfied with the optimized EDC (Engine Control Unit) and are happy to drive home.
Who says that optimizing software only involves drastic changes for performance? The sheer number of adjustable parameters, especially in newer models, offers many more ways to extract power from the engine in a gentle manner, without increasing fuel consumption or soot emissions. It can be adjusted to virtually all input signals, and therefore to external influences, such as intake air temperature, air mass, fuel temperature, ambient pressure, boost pressure, knocking behavior, and lambda values (for gasoline engines), etc.
It is possible to adjust the torque either upwards or downwards, according to customer preferences. And imagine all of this without the motor failing. I drove a 1Z engine with a chip for 300,000 km, and it was a fairly 'powerful' version. The fuel consumption was lower than the standard version, and the engine is still running today.


So, what exactly (besides the price and shelf life) speaks against using a box?
Sure, it will never be able to extract power from the engine like a chip, that's obvious.
But if I buy a used branded stereo system, it won't cost a fortune anymore, and I even get the official inspection report for my car sent to me by the manufacturer so I can register the stereo system.
Sure, a simple box is nothing more than basic tuning, but a box that modifies the signal based on boost pressure definitely has more electronics than just a potentiometer.

'There's definitely more inside than just a simple component, but most of it is just for show, to make it look complicated. It usually doesn't serve any real purpose. If there's nothing actually inside, everything is encased to hide the fact that a lot of money is being made with very little effort.'


Oh yeah, why wouldn't a diagnosis be possible with a Box? Just turn it off and it's fine.

I didn't say it's impossible, but it's inaccurate due to signal distortion.


Best regards, Sindbad.

Regarding my personal project: Do you know any CT specialists who offer a switchable option between standard and tuned performance with TÜV approval?
Apparently, there's something in the boxing world, and I'm going to check it out soon.

Sure, there are switchable versions that allow you to switch between different software levels. There are several options, some good and some less good. However, you won't find any that are officially approved – at least not in Germany. The laws would need to be changed for that. It's the same issue as with N2O and other occasional performance modifications. Therefore, I also doubt that there's a 'switch box' that's approved for use within the framework of traffic regulations.
If that turns out to be the case, please let me know. Then, a solution should also be found for the vehicles that have been modified with chips, so that they can obtain the approval from the TÜV (German Technical Inspection Association).

Best regards, Sindbad.

Hi,
To get it out of the way... I know exactly how a box works and how to use it.
I just want to share my reasons for deciding to install a box and open them up for discussion.
Before the box, which is actually a switchable anti-lag system (load-pressure dependent), was installed in my car, I already had a switchable 10ct tuning system.

1) A chip (we are not talking about iiibay and co. here) is very expensive <--> You can find a box used, which makes it relatively cheap (Thanks to Bertil ).
2) A chip cannot be switched (I want to operate it in series mode 99% of the time), and if it could be switched, it would become significantly more expensive, and the approval from the TÜV (German technical inspection authority) would no longer be obtainable.
3) I have a certificate for the box, which means this is the legalized version of my previous 10-cent tuning.
4) Even with a highly reputable tuner, I don't know what modifications have been made to various performance parameters. In contrast, with a standalone box, I know exactly what adjustments I'm making.

I don't want to generally advocate for boxing here, but for me, the reasons to choose boxing were obvious.
On the side, I would like to mention that the high prices for boxes and chips are certainly, to a large extent, a matter of price gouging (isn't that always the case with tuning ), but one should also consider the costs associated with development, and here in particular, the creation of emission test reports.
One can only say: Legality comes at a price.


Regards,

Andy.

Sindbad wrote:

ulf wrote: Regarding my personal project: Do you know any CT specialists who offer a switchable option between standard and tuned performance with TÜV approval? Apparently, there's something in the boxing world, and I'm going to check it out soon. Sure, there are switchable versions that allow you to switch between different software levels. There are several options, some good and some less good. However, you won't find any that are officially approved – at least not in Germany. The laws would need to be changed for that. It's the same issue as with N2O and other occasional performance modifications. Therefore, I also doubt that there's a "switchable box" that's approved for use within the regulations of the Road Traffic Act. If this turns out to be a problem, please let me know. Then, a solution should be found so that vehicles with modified chips can also obtain approval from the TÜV (German technical inspection agency). Best regards, Sindbad

Interesting. The fact that a chip can be switched is nothing new.
Here, I'm only concerned with the TÜV (German technical inspection authority) approval. The Authal box can be switched on and off, and it has TÜV approval. Whether the inspection report states that it can be installed in a way that allows it to be switched on or off, we'll see when I have it. But let's get back to the chip and the TÜV approval.
Is it possible to get a chip installed in Germany that increases performance by more than 20%?
Probably not, right? Then emission test reports would be necessary, but tuners certainly won't pay for those. That's why all the chips you can buy from tuners are probably in the 20% performance increase range, or am I mistaken?

Sindbad wrote:

x world one wrote: So far, you haven't presented a real argument against using a tuning box. With a tuning box, you can at least get a sense of whether you're pushing the limits of the engine's performance, whereas with chip tuning, you can modify all parameters in a way that gives the customer impressive power gains, but also leads to a broken engine within just a few kilometers. I don't know where you got that information, and frankly, I don't care – believe what you want. I haven't had any reports of engine damage from my customers, and I've had many. And those who came to the yard with a "box" (referring to a specific type of vehicle or component) are satisfied with the optimized EDC (Engine Control Unit) and are happy to drive home.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against chip tuning; this box is a temporary solution until I have enough money to invest in a different performance upgrade.
And for as long as it remains, the control unit is relatively well-tuned compared to my previous 10c tuning, and the signal manipulation based on boost pressure also results in significantly improved driving characteristics. So, with the control unit, at least nothing should go wrong with the engine.
Therefore, I really can't understand, sorry, why you're so against these speakers. I think they're perfectly suitable for some basic upgrades. I agree that the new price might not necessarily reflect the value you get, but I think the ~70 euros I paid for them is reasonable.

Quote:

Who says that optimizing software only involves drastic changes for performance? The sheer number of adjustable parameters, especially in newer models, offers many more ways to extract power from the engine in a gentle manner, without increasing fuel consumption or soot emissions. It can be adjusted to virtually all input signals, and therefore to external influences, such as intake air temperature, air mass, fuel temperature, ambient pressure, boost pressure, knocking behavior, and lambda values (for gasoline engines), etc. It is possible to adjust the torque either upwards or downwards, according to customer preferences. And imagine all of this happening without the motor failing. I drove a 1Z engine with a chip for 300,000 km, and it was a fairly "powerful" version. The fuel consumption was lower than the standard version, and the engine is still running today.

"I understand and am familiar with most of this. However, I find it hard to believe that a chip tuner claiming a 40% performance increase with just a chip is reliable. I can't imagine that a TDI engine has that much untapped potential, or that it could handle such a significant power increase. I mean, truly pure chip tuning, without any other modifications like injectors, etc."
You often read online about 130 horsepower PD engines that have been chipped to produce 180 horsepower or more. Is that really healthy for the engine?

For information:
The expert opinion from Authal arrived today. It doesn't mention whether the device is switchable or not, or how it should be installed. Therefore, it shouldn't matter for the device itself.

'I understand and am familiar with most of this. However, I find it hard to believe that a chip tuner claiming a 40% performance increase solely through chip tuning is reliable. I can't imagine that a TDI engine has that much untapped potential, or that it could handle such a significant power increase. I mean, truly pure chip tuning, without any modifications to the injectors, etc.'
You often read online about 130 horsepower PD engines that have been chipped to 180 horsepower or more. Is that really healthy?

...that has nothing to do with being reliable, and it's just a promise from those people. Some people exaggerate incredibly, and they should be asked where this high performance is supposed to come from – then the providers will really struggle to explain.

Regarding what is healthy and unhealthy for the engine, I don't think there's much to discuss here. Whether it's achieved with a box or a chip, increasing torque, boost pressure, etc., always means greater mechanical and thermal stress on the optimized engine.

Best regards, Sindbad.

An additional box is unacceptable for a very simple reason:
To get more fuel into the combustion chamber, either the injection pressure needs to be increased (which is not possible with TDI engines because they are pressure-controlled) or the injection duration needs to be extended.
If the amount of fuel is increased too much via the control module, the injection duration becomes too long, and over time, the piston crown temperature becomes excessively high. Depending on the settings, the piston crown may experience detonation, or the piston crown itself may burn through.
Due to the higher exhaust temperatures, the turbocharger also suffers, especially the VTG mechanism, which tends to jam repeatedly (as one often reads here).

Without increasing the air intake pressure, the fuel mixture will become too rich, leading to increased soot formation. This soot is partially recirculated through the EGR system and, over time, deposits on the intake passages.

When performing proper chip tuning, the increased fuel quantity is compensated for by advancing the injection timing, and the boost pressure is adjusted accordingly. This makes the vehicle significantly more agile and stable.

You can easily get performance increases of over 20% registered (I have done so in both of my AFNs, for example).

In principle, I have to agree with Sinbad, but tone is what makes the music.