hey Gremlin | Posts 16+

Okay, so it doesn't produce a lot of smoke, more than the stock configuration, yes, but I only notice it now when I have the sun directly behind me and I'm looking in the mirror!
Even during the test drive, I was right behind it, and there wasn't much soot at all!

The power output must be in the range of one to two kilowatts.

My friend drives a PD with 130 horsepower. In a direct comparison, I can pull away from him up to about 150 km/h, then nothing happens, and from about 170 km/h he starts to catch up, and from 180 km/h he pulls away from me.
Well, I notice it most when turning the device on or off, specifically between 2000 and 4000 RPM!
Above 4000 [units/rpm/etc.], the noise from the device becomes barely noticeable!

Sure, here's the translation:

'Hello.'

TDIBubi wrote:

Quote: I think you are referring to the performance that I specified. Yes. I can't imagine that such performance is possible with the standard 90 horsepower injectors without a risk of "melting," especially since even chip tuners generally don't achieve much more with the option of adjusting the injection timing. So, I measured it using the diagnostic connector! They told me that the piston could melt, which I understood. They also said that the fuel mixture wasn't yet at a critical point, the boost pressure was within acceptable limits, and the exhaust values, while no longer suitable for a vehicle inspection (due to soot), weren't so bad that they would damage the engine. "With this car, you can really have a lot of fun without breaking it!"

As far as I understand from the jumble of words, the tuning company detected via the OBD interface that the engine is not yet at its limit. How can they do that with a tuning box?! A tuning box feeds false values to the engine control unit (ECU), effectively rendering the diagnostics almost completely useless. Furthermore, you can't control the turbo boost at all with a tuning box. A TDI engine that fails the emissions test due to excessive fuel injection (as your tuner said) is likely being operated close to the point of piston melting!!! While the performance might be good, it's certainly not healthy.

What exactly did they do?
Okay, so they plugged into the diagnostic connector, fiddled with something for a while, and mentioned something about lambda values.
Then he attached two more cables to the engine, but I don't know where or what they were for, as I had to wait behind the car for safety reasons!

They build their own speakers, so I think they know what they're measuring to determine what's possible and what's not.

If the car was close to its melting point, someone would have said something.
I've already had them work on 3 (gasoline) engines for me before!

I'm a good customer and friend to them, and I've spent a lot of money with them.

Why would they lie to me?

They told me the boost pressure is higher than stock, but not at the limit. According to the exhaust readings, the amount shouldn't be in the dangerous range.

'Can't you tell if too much is being injected by looking at the cloudiness or the CO levels?'

Sure, here's the translation:

'Hello.'

TDIBubi wrote:

... they were talking about lambda values and stuff!!

... With the TDI, there's no such thing as lambda values. The current systems don't even have a lambda sensor. They've probably been feeding you misinformation!

Quote:

... They build their own speakers, so I think they know what they're measuring to determine what's possible and what's not. If the car was close to its melting point, someone would have said something. I've already had them work on 3 (gasoline) engines for me before! ...

... when the cash register rings, no one will tell you anything about potential risks that might make you hesitate to take the money.

Quote:

I'm a good customer and friend to them, and I've spent a lot of money with them. Why would they lie to me? ...

Please provide the text you would like me to translate from German to English. I need the text to be able to translate it.

Quote:

... They told me the boost pressure is higher than stock, but not at the limit. According to the exhaust readings, the amount shouldn't be in the dangerous range. ...

If the boost pressure is supposedly higher than stock, but not exceeding the limits that the engine control unit (ECU) would recognize as an error, then you are within the factory tolerances, and that is a perfectly normal boost pressure.
The guys have done it again – they've either tied you up in knots or contradicted themselves.
And you can't do anything about the boost pressure with a simple module.
If you've had a chip installed in the engine control unit (ECU), the situation is different.

Quote:

... "Can't you tell if too much is being injected by looking at the cloudiness or the CO levels?"

CO - No, this is not measured in diesel engines.
Turbidity --- Yes, it is measured during the water quality analysis. If the reading is above 2.0, you will fail the AU (emission test), and the engine is likely running too rich (unless there is a defect).

"Get to know these 'tuners'. They're all crooks. Anyone who doesn't understand how things work will generally get ripped off. Check out the forum under "10ct Tuning" --- That's the principle behind the power box! The total material cost is about 15 euros. Let's assume 50 euros (for the more elaborate packaging). These boxes are sold for between 299 and 799 euros (currently at the Essen Motor Show). Do you think the rest is just pure profit? Well, there's also the cost of a TÜV (German technical inspection) certificate (about 10,000 euros), and with an estimated profit of 250 euros per box, that pays for itself after selling just 40 boxes. If you assume that these boxes are sold in the hundreds, then the price of around 300 euros is already bordering on extortion! And then you still ask, "Why would he lie to me?" He lied to you at the very moment he sold you the box!
When I confronted a well-known box manufacturer at the Essen Motor Show with these facts, I was treated as if I had revealed a state secret.

Sure, here's the translation:

"Addendum:"

I don't want to demonize tuning boxes here, but we shouldn't gloss over the risks associated with them.
Your "tuner" clearly tried to do that!

TDIBubi wrote:

Hello, Okay, I got the box from someone in Berlin! It should have the same design as the P-box! The people at SLS-Gelader-tuning in Hofgeismar determined the value using a rolling test stand. I saw the diagram myself. It shows two curves: one for P-Rad (85 kW), which represents the power output, and another for P-Verlust (10 kW), which represents the power loss. The sum of both is P-Motor, which represents the total motor power. I couldn't believe it myself, so I asked them to take the measurement again to be sure, and it was the same! I can gladly try to find the address of the person who sold me the box back then, if you'd like. If you just want to see it, it's a small black box that's plugged into the wiring harness that connects to the ESP! X greeting

I wouldn't have thought a power box could do that.
yes, actually only the amount of ice crystals increases, but not...
the injection timing advance, the turbocharger boost pressure, and the peak power output.
which is slightly lower when operating at the standard speed.
Mine should have 125 horsepower with a ******** chip. It also rusts quite a bit.

And did they make no changes to the turbo boost pressure?

CU

TDIBubi wrote:

I am a good customer and friend of theirs, and I have already spent a lot of money with them!! why would they lie to me?

TDIBubi wrote:

... I saw the diagram myself. It shows two curves: one for P-Rad (85 kW), which represents the power output, and another for P-Verlust (10 kW), which represents the power loss. The sum of both is P-Motor, which represents the total motor power. ...

You are making a small mistake with this calculation!!!
You cannot simply add P-loss max and P-rad max together!!!!
You must add the P-loss and the P-rad values at the speed point where the difference between the two curves is greatest, because the point where the P-loss reaches its maximum is not necessarily the same point where the P-rad reaches its maximum.

Take a look at the picture of an LPS002 (calibrated!!!). If I calculate the maximum P-loss and maximum P-rad (22 hp + 78 hp), I get 100 hp. However, the actual maximum power is "only" 95.2 hp (see marking).



The vehicle was a Golf2 1.8L 90HP Monojet, manufactured in 1989, a standard production model.

Okay, so my diagram looked something like that too!
Just a little sharper!!
They didn't add both maximum values together, just like you're looking at a straight line to see where the values lie!
They've been producing G-series loaders with up to 280 horsepower for several years now, and everything is tested on their own testing platform!
Regarding the risks, they told me something similar to what you've heard about 'chip and box' systems.

'People will tell you anything when money is involved.'
THE BOX DOESN'T BELONG TO THEM; I just had it placed there!
Okay, so I'm not talking about making a lot of money, and I don't think charging 50 DM for an hour of inspection is outrageous!

It doesn't really matter anymore whether it has 130, 160, or 115 horsepower; it easily keeps up with a 130PD, and it's just fun to leave even the flashy cars like the 240 CDI behind, even up to 140 km/h!
It's running well.

What I'm curious about now is the details regarding the EN 3 standard that he has.
What exactly does the ECU measure?
I can't believe they're only talking about superficial things??????
'Doesn't that thing have a catalytic converter? And catalytic converters can only convert CO into CO2, right?' At most, if it's running very hot, it might burn a little more soot, but I highly doubt that!
Is there a huge difference between those two?

There are even significant differences. Do some research on the exhaust composition of gasoline and diesel engines.

In diesel engines, a lambda control system is unnecessary because diesel engines are operated with an excess of air, even at full load. This excess air is consumed by tuning boxes. A standard TDI engine does not produce black smoke. The engine control unit contains various maps that were determined through testing and road trials, with a particular focus on exhaust emissions. The electronic throttle control also plays a significant role in preventing black smoke emissions.
In direct injection engines, the combustion temperature is higher than in chamber engines. Consequently, the proportion of nitrogen oxides (NOx) in the exhaust gases increases. This is counteracted by exhaust gas recirculation. Unburned hydrocarbons (CO) are post-combusted in the catalytic converter. Newer engines will be equipped with NOx storage catalysts, and their development is currently underway.

To obtain an emissions class, a standardized driving cycle is performed. During this process, the COMPLETE exhaust gas composition is measured. For example, if I disconnect the exhaust gas recirculation system, the NOx content will be too high, resulting in non-approval.
The same thing is happening with the box.

The AU (official inspection) only measures the opacity of the diesel exhaust. Usually, you can still pass with a tuning box because the test isn't performed under load, and the increased fuel injection is compensated for by the speed governor. However, your tuning box definitely wouldn't pass a driving cycle test. With chip tuning, it's not a problem because, without load, the same amount of fuel is injected as without the chip. The tuning box *always* injects more fuel.

But one thing is clear: 'Russ' means incomplete combustion. A portion of your expensive diesel fuel is being wasted. And the risk of piston melting has been mentioned several times (it looks quite dramatic when a piston melts, by the way). At high injection rates, the process takes so long that an increasingly large portion of the diesel fuel cannot be burned (see also your comment about activating the tuning box at higher RPMs). You can inject as much fuel as you want at that point, but it won't achieve anything other than 'Russ.' This factor becomes worse with increasing injection duration, so it simply doesn't make sense to increase the injection amount beyond a certain limit. The only solution in that case is to use injectors with a larger bore size, which would need to be adjusted accordingly.a pump.
By the way, there have already been studies on chip tuning. In all cases, the exhaust temperature exceeded the limits. This can lead to damage to the turbocharger if the engine is run at full throttle continuously!
Oh yeah, and the boost pressure cannot be influenced by a box. Even with the maximum injection amount, it's regulated to its 0.9 bar and that's it. They told you nonsense there...

I'm not trying to discourage you from getting the box, but be warned.

CU Gremlin.

Hello Gremlin,

a small note:

Quote:

when it comes to chip tuning, this isn't a problem at all, because without load, the same amount of fuel is injected as without the chip.

the device always injects more.
The load during a diesel engine dynamometer test consists of freely accelerating the rotating masses within the engine.
There should be no difference between the box and the chip in this case, unless the chip is "cheating" by detecting the AU (air unit) and intentionally causing the engine to rev up slower.
Since the available time is more than enough, early arrival shouldn't be a problem; just accelerate slowly and steadily instead of slamming on the gas.

Best regards, Rainer.

So, what do I even need a workshop for when I have this forum here?!
Attention, everyone!!

But how exactly is a box configured, and what settings are involved?

What parameters are they measuring through the diagnostic connector during the adjustment process?

Can you tell if excessive diesel is being injected based on the color of the exhaust, which might indicate 'piston melting'?

It doesn't sound like an old 200D, even under full load!

He only complains sometimes, like when climbing a steep, long mountain, somewhere between 3000 and 4000 meters. Above 4000 meters, I don't really notice much difference anymore whether I'm riding with or without the [bike attachment/trailer].

Ugh, I don't care, because the device is switchable, and if I have to go there, I'll just unplug it from the power outlet as a precaution, so that the device can't be switched on (it will always be off), even if someone presses the switch!!

Thank you very much for your excellent answers!!

TDIBubi wrote:

But how exactly is a box configured, and what settings are involved? What exactly are they measuring when adjusting it via the diagnostic connector?

Hi.

That's exactly what I'm still wondering - the only one who could provide a well-informed answer would probably be your workshop.

Again: Since the EDC (Electronic Stability Control) doesn't detect any changes from normal box tuning and continues to adjust based on the default values, I don't believe you can get any direct indications from the OBD port regarding the (harmful or still acceptable) extent of the tuning.