Zweimassenschwungrad?! | Posts 16+

I knew it! It would have been too good to be true...

Okay, let's go with KlausiMaus! *laughs*
No, seriously: According to my (non-definitive!) knowledge, there is only one option for my rare combination, and that's exclusively from LUK (not Sachs (ZF)!). And even that's not in a reinforced version or anything *sigh*
That's why I became so "critical" when I read about the "kit" for ALL 1.9 TDI (??!) and 1.8 engines from the VW group on BaguetteBosch's page...

Even though you have (sometimes *g*) stopped using my preferred nickname: Would you perhaps inquire with your dealer if there is indeed something EXACTLY like this (um... definitely suitable, please *fg*) available for my vehicle here?

I'm happy to send you the vehicle data carrier by fax, email, or post if you find it useful.

Thank you again in advance

You could get the VAG OE number for your specific type to see if the 228 Sachs or the 230 LUK was installed.
Edit: after Tec Doc there are 2!
Both are also suitable for T5 engines with 102 - 105 hp, which should still provide some reserve!
I will call again on Friday to check if the Sachs part fits.
Do you understand EMS, or are you referring to 2MS?

No, I don't want to know anything more about that (damn) ZMS!!!

Anyone would simply install a single EMS in a commercial vehicle...
Okay, I now mean by "not-studying" practitioners, "Normalos" *ggg*

Ok, I'll find out the part number - but it might take a little while.

Despite everything, I would like to thank you again very much for your information!!!

[Translating...]Jemand sonst noch ein paar Tipps oder Ratschläge zwecks G60/VR6 EMS mit 228er Kupplung am ASV?

Hello, I have the email address Valeo to inquire about which multi-plate clutch and clutch kit is suitable:

( VS-Ratingen-Hotline (at) Valeo.com ) Mr. Hackmann.

Please provide the exact data in advance, including all MKB/GKB and installed power + serial performance, problem description and planned actions.
Then call the next day to clarify any remaining uncertainties or to answer any questions.

Everything is clear, thank you...

Any other tips regarding EMS?

trebor wrote:

Are there any other tips or advice regarding the G60/VR6 EMS with a 228mm clutch on the ASV?

Hi,

What tips would you like?
I am using a 1Z-sprocket with the original 1Z-clutch on an AHF gearbox
The engine can exert a maximum load of 250 Nm on the clutch (optimized 1Z), but it must also be able to handle a total gross vehicle weight of 5000 kg.
The brake disc has lasted for about 100,000 km, but now it's pretty worn out.
At Sachs racing, you can find clutch sets that are designed to withstand more. I would rather not install them, because I need a perfect dosage, and not a quasi-digital coupling.

Greetings
Jens

@jens16syncro

Got a PM!!!

@ all

Would the transmission withstand the switch from ZMS to EMS?
Someone once told me that the input wave storage in gearboxes originally designed for ZMS (presumably a specific type of lubrication) is less stable than in gearboxes originally designed for EMS (presumably another type of lubrication).

In practice, I personally experienced no issues with gearbox durability even with significantly higher torque.

trebor wrote:

@jens16syncro Got a PM!!!

I'll address this publicly:

I have converted a TDI engine into a T3 Syncro (VW Bus) with an AFN engine.
The engine was untuned, so it only produced 235 Nm of power.
Originally, I installed the original ZMS.
The ZMS failed after a relatively short period of operation, which was noticeable as strong vibrations, shaking during starting, and clutch slippage.
After the ZMS was expanded, it became apparent that the spring system had begun to disassemble itself.
Almost simultaneously, a friend experienced the same thing; his ZMS even seized up completely, meaning that it had become blocked due to an internal spring failure. The expansion only worked using a flex, as the fixing screws were concealed.

I then upgraded to EMS from 1Z and also the clutch was replaced with a standard 1Z clutch.
Since (approximately 140,000 km), everything has been working perfectly without any defects, but the friction disc is approaching its wear limit. I have not been able to detect any loss of comfort or excessive gearbox wear that exceeds what is typical for TDI conversions.

The gearbox of the T3 Syncro is specified by VW to a maximum of 200 Nm, so it is therefore running under constant overload. The gearbox input shaft is extremely long and also divided into two parts, as it runs through the differential housing, which is located between the engine flange and the gearbox (Käfer technology). The long and relatively thin wave has, as far as I know, never failed. If it has, it's usually the synchronous components, or the gearbox gears or bearings.
The wave can dampen vibrations caused by micro-torsion due to its extreme length. A short and thick wave in a front-wheel drive vehicle cannot do this.
Whether it has any effect, I don't think anyone really knows

Anyway, I don't believe that a ZMS (Central Motor Mount) actually protects the transmission in a VEP (Vehicle Engine Power) TDI, rather it ensures more comfortable driving. And if this system completely messes up the vehicle-engine-transmission, it seems very pointless to use a ZMS in such an undocumented system, which was not designed for it. In that case, it would be better to use the "proven" EMS (Engine Management System), which is not sensitive to system changes.

There are also many T3 drivers who still use an AFN with ZMS, some for years. Therefore, it can definitely work. However, syncro drivers are particularly plagued by ZMS failures if they use their vehicle appropriately, even off-road. Many have switched back to EMS.

Greetings
Jens

Thank you for your information.

I'm going to change my shock absorbers first, and then I'll think about my ZMS conversion (Valeo kit or G60/VR6/1Z EMS with T4 Synchro clutch disc and VR6 flywheel).

Jens 16syncro wrote:

Almost simultaneously, a friend experienced the same thing; his ZMS even seized up completely, meaning that it had become blocked due to an internal spring failure. The expansion only worked using a flex, as the fixing screws were concealed.

Exactly, it was a pretty {BAD} job, getting it {BACK} again.

However, we did not find any lubricants either in the remnants of the ZMS or in the bell. Therefore, the faulty ZMS was unlubricated, which should not be the case, and this may have been the cause of the failure.

I installed a new ZMS (from a Sharan, as the original was from a Golf) back then and haven't had any problems since. That must be around 100,000 km now.

My Syncro weighs approximately 2300-2500kg, but it is not used as intensively as Jens's.

Greetings,
Dieter

Seruvs Klaus! ...I can't use pet names anymore

teileklaus wrote:

You could get the VAG OE number for your specific type to see if the 228 Sachs or the 230 LUK was originally installed. Edit: after Tec Doc there are 2! Both are also suitable for T5 engines with 102 - 105 hp, which should still provide some reserve! I will call again on Friday to check if the Sachs part fits. Do you understand me correctly with EMS, or are you referring to your 2MS?

Okay, I've had the part number for the ZMS related to my AXC, retrieved.
03G 105 266 AB
What was actually installed, however, I have no idea, but it seems to be all original from the factory.

Many thanks again for looking!

Greetings from Munich!

To all potential "Valeo customers"
due to ongoing requests:
According to today's information from VALEO, the 228 mm EMS kit "basically" does not fit with the central release clutch couplings.
For this, a 240mm version with a single-mass flywheel is being prepared (No, not available, and no appointment available)
Additionally (while holding back), a further enhanced version is being prepared.
Please do not ask about Valeo yet, as it may not be available until the end of next year.

So, bei Serie 240 mm + Leistungssteigerung, muss man noch warten oder eine Sachs Racing Sinter Scheibe kaufen.

Back to basics...

Has anyone been able to gather experience with the Valeo conversion kit so far?