Sch.....rott Elektronik im Auto | Posts 16+

(By the way, the G4, besides the E-Kadett, is one of the most extreme oversteer cars I've ever driven - which is probably why it has ESP as standard.)

the Octavia estate, also
If it starts to oversteer, it will do so quite dramatically, especially when braking in a corner.


Back to the topic:
The ABS is fine, and I'm not complaining about it.
ASR/ESD can be a great help, especially on wet roads. The system itself is also good. It should definitely be switchable, otherwise you might get some unpleasant surprises in the winter (...why is the car slowing down even though I'm flooring it?).

It seems like this has been revised. I can't complain about the ASR/EDS function; the car went up the hill quite well in the winter. The ASR surprisingly allows for a lot of wheel slip. On a packed snow surface, I actually got going almost better with ASR than without it .
The EDS (Electronic Stability Program) is brilliant when merging onto main roads. It allows you to fully accelerate instead of struggling with wheelspin. The EDS was also very pleasant to use in the winter.
On the other hand, I haven't driven with both for almost 15 years, so I'm pretty used to it. I think I'll make some videos in front of our house this winter. It's always an experience.

CU Gremlin.

christians wrote:

Then go drive a D-Kadett.

You're right, he wasn't easy either. I remember the E-Kadett because of a competition where it had more rearward traction than forward traction.

christians wrote:

The first generation Volkswagen Golf was also

criminally underpowered, even without a brake force distribution system.

[img][/img]
No comment... or so? However, with the BKR fully open!

Gremlin wrote:

the Octavia Combi also

For vehicles with the same platform, I would expect a similar "poor" driving experience.

With all these electronic aids available, it's crucial to know exactly what you're doing.
Everything has its pros and cons. I've managed for 19 years without the electronic co-pilot, and now I just feel like I'm being patronized. It's not very pleasant for me when the car goes with you and not you with the car .http://mitglied.lycos.de/kraftbertil/Bilder/Jetta_im_Drift.jpg{MARKER}

Hi,

Okay, so I don't really trust ABS in the winter. Back then, I was a relatively inexperienced driver (2 years of driving license) and I was driving a Golf IV in what was essentially a pedestrian zone (a strange, smooth red pavement where you constantly end up with your front wheel on the curb if you're not careful) on black ice (not salted). I was going about 10-20 km/h, driving along the side of a house, and a stream was in front of me. I wanted to turn left at the corner of the house... well, as I said, I was almost walking speed, driving a 1998/99 Golf IV, and...

Effect: I frantically slammed on the brakes, the engine was making a funny noise, and then the stream appeared...

Result: NO, I didn't end up in the stream... Since I couldn't think of anything better, I slammed the car into reverse, floored the accelerator, pulled the handbrake as far as it would go, and prayed... On the paved road, the speed decreased, but the effect came just as the stream was almost in sight, thanks to the sandy slope. The rear wheels spinning in reverse propelled the car backward, overcoming the slight forward force of the rear wheels on the ice... and the car stopped!

Since: NEVER AGAIN ABS IN WINTER FOR ME!

(I've driven through many winters in my own cars, and none of them had ABS, and so far I've never had any problems in the winter, and sometimes I've even had a lot of fun (in large, open areas).)

Bertil wrote:

I wouldn't rely on the G4 ESP.

Hello Bertil,

Thank you for your experiences (and also the experiences of others).
Yesterday, I took advantage of them.
Polo ordered (96 kW TDI base model, what else? ), and ESP cancelled -> saved 250 euros.

Will likely be shipped in March.

@ulf

Congratulations!!! Are you now using a PD (presumably referring to a specific product or service)?

Hi Ulf,

You didn't make the decision easy for yourself...
But you're going to have a lot of fun with it. Congratulations.

Hi Ulf,

Congratulations from me too!

You know how it goes: What lasts a long time... and you certainly didn't make the decision easy for yourself.

Best regards,

Jan.

I wouldn't rely on the G4 ESP.

I'm willing to discuss this statement, but not the one you made in your first post. Through driving training programs (both in summer and winter), I've had the opportunity to drive almost the entire product range of Mercedes-Benz, and in all those cases, the ESP (Electronic Stability Program) never once (I repeat: NEVER!) caused the vehicle to unintentionally steer in a particular direction. And it didn't matter whether it was a 4MATIC vehicle or purely rear-wheel drive/front-wheel drive.

Since you apparently drove (or are driving?) in private rallies, I think vehicle control is something you're very familiar with. However, from my experience, I can tell you that you need to learn how to drive with ESP (Electronic Stability Program) properly, and if you only 'test' it once or twice a year, that's not enough.
I still remember my first driving lesson at MB, when after a swerve test and subsequent watering of a plastic sheet, I spun around and thought: Great, and that's what ESP is supposed to be???
Over the remaining 2 days, I got to know the ESP and what it's capable of. Two full days... but not because I was too slow to understand, but because you have to change your riding style!
Later, we drove the car through the elk test at speeds of up to 160 km/h, and not a single cone fell over. Before that, despite the presence of ESP, everything was cleared away.

I haven't tested the VW system as extensively because my Golf 4 didn't have ESP, and I didn't miss it. Good tires are simply irreplaceable.

The drifting state is a very computationally intensive state for the ESP (Electronic Stability Program), and relatively few sensors are available to monitor it. Your experience here suggests that, as part of cost-cutting measures at Volkswagen, the computing power may have been somewhat limited.

I'm definitely looking forward to the upcoming winter; let's see what the ESP in my 8E can do. So far, I'm completely satisfied.

@Ulf:
Congratulations on your new car!!! I hope that it will be a flawless one for you!

However, from my experience, I can tell you that you need to learn how to drive with ESP (!), and if you only 'test' it once or twice a year, that's not enough.

I'm sorry, but I think that statement is complete nonsense.

ESP is a system designed to prevent the average driver from engaging in overly enthusiastic driving on the road. It's intended for drivers who simply want to drive normally.

If I need to adjust to the ESP system, I might as well drive without it and adjust to that instead.

As you (and others) have probably noticed, there are huge differences in the implementation and function of the ESP system. The Golf and Passat, in particular, have poorly programmed systems. If the rear of the car starts to slide and the ESP just sits there doing nothing, I wonder what the point of having it on board is. If you perform the same maneuver in a Mercedes, you'll find that it brakes significantly. When the Passat's ESP finally kicks in, the car is already so sideways that it's too late, and it just initiates a full spin.
Sure, some people dismiss early interventions as 'unsportsmanlike' and 'fun-killers'... but that's why there's the ESP-OFF button...

CU Gremlin.

By the way, the ESP system in the Octavia Combi ASZ will be tested this winter. However, due to its relationship to the Golf/Passat, I have my doubts about it.

vagtuning wrote:

Hi, Okay, so I don't really trust ABS in the winter. Back then, I was a relatively inexperienced driver (2 years of driving license) and I was driving a Golf IV in what was essentially a pedestrian zone (a strange, smooth red pavement where you constantly end up with your front wheel on the curb if you're not careful) on black ice (not salted). I was going about 10-20 km/h, driving along the side of a house, and a stream was in front of me. I wanted to turn left at the corner of the house... well, as I said, I was almost walking speed, driving a 1998/99 Golf IV, and... Effect: I frantically slammed on the brakes, the engine was making a funny noise, and then the stream appeared... Result: NO, I didn't end up in the stream... Since I couldn't think of anything better, I slammed the car into reverse, floored the accelerator, pulled the handbrake as far as it would go, and prayed... On the paved road, the speed decreased, but the effect came just as the stream was almost in sight, thanks to the sandy slope. The rear wheels spinning in reverse propelled the car backward, overcoming the slight forward force of the rear wheels on the ice... and the car stopped! Since: NEVER AGAIN ABS IN WINTER FOR ME! (I have now driven through many winters in my own car, and none of them had ABS, and so far I have never had any problems in the winter, and sometimes I've even had a lot of fun (in large, open areas)

.

However, your description of the experience leads me to believe that you might have been glad to have had ABS! Without ABS, you won't be able to stop on an icy road, that's a fact!
I'm also going to retrofit ABS to my '96 Golf 3, because it's almost unbearable to drive the car without it. The weight of the engine pushes the front of the car down quite a bit during heavy braking, and the wheels lock up immediately on wet surfaces. The increased braking distance compared to having ABS is significant. Since I drive several kilometers through wooded areas every day, I find ABS very useful, especially now in the fall when the roads are wet and slippery. That's where ABS really makes a difference!

Regarding the ESP in my Golf 4, I can only say that it hasn't kicked in for me yet, and it seems to react very late. The traction control system is also a joke; it never seems to engage. At least, I haven't been able to make it work. In other vehicles, the ASR (traction control) at least functions properly, unlike in my BMW. Generally speaking, I can say that I find my Golf 3 has better handling than the Golf 4, and I also prefer the front-wheel drive system.

Hi Julian,

Julian wrote:

...Since you apparently drove (or drive?) private rally races, I think that vehicle control is absolutely not a foreign concept to you.

That is correct...

Quote:

However, from my experience, I can tell you that you need to learn how to drive with ESP (Electronic Stability Program) properly, and if you only "test" it once or twice a year, that's not enough.

That's also correct, and I've now completed my second training session with ESP. The result: even the instructor had to quietly admit that ESP is actually junk (more on that below).

Quote:

I still remember my first driving lesson at MB, when after a swerve test and subsequent watering of a plastic sheet, I spun around and thought: Great, and that's what ESP is supposed to be???

ESP is specifically designed for situations like these, and it's very helpful in those scenarios (at least for the average driver).

Quote:

.... The drifting state is a very computationally intensive state for the ESP (Electronic Stability Program), and relatively few sensors are available to monitor it. Your experience here suggests that, as part of cost-cutting measures at Volkswagen, the computing power may have been somewhat limited.

That's probably true. Unfortunately, I've also had the opportunity to try other ESPs, and they haven't responded any differently.

Now, let's talk about the problem with current ESP systems:
If the ESP (Electronic Stability Program) control unit does not receive any steering input, then no control action will be taken.
So, if the rear end breaks loose due to a load shift reaction, and the driver doesn't steer to correct it, the ESP won't compensate either (this is where many serious accidents often occur). Counter-steering with ESP also needs to be done differently than without it. The ESP reacts to sudden steering movements and interprets them as a "panic reaction," intervening helpfully. Unfortunately, this intervention is often in the direction of the steering angle. However, this is undesirable when counter-steering, because it's not intended to indicate a desired direction (like when swerving) but rather to follow the steering in the direction of travel/slide. Therefore, you need to steer in the opposite direction much more gently/slowly so that the ESP doesn't intervene.
Right at that point, the instructor had to admit that the ESP system has significant limitations, likely because the system, for cost reasons, has to be restricted to a smaller range of functions.

Gremlin wrote:

.... if the rear end starts to slide and the ESP just sits there doing nothing, I start to wonder what it's even there for.

That's exactly the question I asked...

Quote:

If you try the same maneuver with a Mercedes, you'll experience endless braking.

Okay, with BMW, I'm quite sure that the ASR or ESD will brake you, but not the ESP. Since ESD and ASR act on the rear axle, and the difference in speed then becomes too large for the (free-spinning) front axle, the ASR system is activated.
At least the BMW handles load transfer better.

Quote:

... but that's what the ESP-OFF button is for...

What a lucky thing

x world one wrote:

...Regarding the ESP (Electronic Stability Program) of the Golf 4, I can only say that it hasn't intervened for me yet, and it probably reacts very late.

Okay, so the ESP in the G4 typically activates quite late, but at least it doesn't act as a "fun brake" like it does in, for example, a Peugeot.

Quote:

The traction control system is also a joke; it never actually engages. Of course, I haven't managed to do it yet.

The ASR works great... at least, it does for me. It's a great help in trailer operations.

Quote:

In general, I can say that I find that my Golf 3 has better road handling than the 4, and I also find the FWK to be better.

Unfortunately, I can't confirm that... at least not for the wagon version. The G4 is slightly more sensitive to load changes, but that doesn't bother me because I like rear-wheel-drive cars (see my rally car). The G4 is significantly quieter, especially when driving on the Autobahn.

Okay, with BMW, I'm quite sure that the ASR or ESD will brake you, but not the ESP. Since ESD and ASR act on the rear axle here, and the difference in speed then becomes too large for the (free-spinning) front axle, the ASR becomes active.

We made sure to remove the rear section without any load transfer reactions. In other words, we wanted it to be able to handle wet surfaces and high speeds.

If the ESP is so heavily dependent on the steering angle, then what's the point of installing a gyroscope? It's supposed to detect the rotation. Maybe the designers have once again overruled the engineers, and the sensor is located in the wrong place?!


The traction control system is a joke; it never seems to engage. At least, I haven't been able to make it work yet. In other vehicles, the ASR at least functions, see BMW.

Okay, here's the translation:

'So, without ASR, I can't get anywhere when it's wet. Even with a lot of throttle, it still slips too much on a dry track. Are you sure you have one? It happens to me even when I want to drive my test track in the wet. It has a really nice curve at the beginning that you need to take at 90 degrees for the measurement. When you apply the throttle there, the system starts flashing and cuts the throttle '
'However, it does allow for a lot of wheelspin. It's not possible to start off with a lot of traction, and driving uphill in the snow is also a problem. The programmer used to be more capable in that regard...'

CU Gremlin.

Gremlin wrote:

We made sure to remove the rear section without any load transfer reactions. In other words, we wanted it to be able to handle wet surfaces and high speeds.

Yes, that's correct. However, if the rear of the vehicle starts to slide, the driven rear wheels begin to spin slightly faster because the resistance from the forward motion is lost, and that's when the ASR (Anti-Slip Regulation) kicks in. If you have the opportunity to glance at the tachometer while shifting, you'll see it very clearly.
If you can achieve this maneuver by disengaging the clutch while accelerating, the ESP system should eventually kick in.

Quote:

If the ESP is so heavily dependent on the steering angle, then what's the point of installing a gyroscope? It's supposed to detect the rotation. Maybe the designers have once again overruled the engineers, and the sensor is located in the wrong place?!

I agree completely. It seems that the signal from the gyroscope is being largely ignored. The (the --- I believe the Golf 4 has two) is located in the A-pillar. Too far forward to detect rearward movement.
I'm not sure where the gyroscope is located in a BMW or a DC (In the case of the BMW, I seem to recall something being behind the handbrake lever in the center console, but I might be mistaken).

It's located in the A-pillar (I believe the Golf 4 has two). For determining if a rearward movement is excessively far forward.

As far as I can recall, the gyroscope doesn't measure lateral acceleration, but rather a rotational movement .

Therefore, it shouldn't matter where they sit in the car! Unless, of course, your car is so severely deformed that the rear actually turns more than the front . In that case, please send a photo of it .

Regards,
Private.