Erfahrungen mit dem Laderegler "microcharge" | Posts 16+

Jens 16syncro wrote:

..... No, the story is actually much funnier... Agtar is selling Hella's HPR!

That was a *long* time ago...

I only met Mr. Kurt Elsernheimer about 5 weeks ago, and according to him, the system is no longer made by Hella.
When I first saw the system (about 3 years ago), it was still a genuine Hella system (with the Hella logo) even at AGTAR. Nowadays, all the Hella markings have disappeared from the housings. Please note that I last saw the system 5 weeks ago.

"On his website, he also refers to the Hella connection. ".... "AGTAR has acquired the regulator business from Hella."
Hella itself no longer offers this system (neither in Germany nor abroad). Since the manufacturing is done by a well-known small-scale manufacturer, it's not a problem to change the seller (now AGTAR).

Agtar is selling Hella's HPR product! I know this for sure, because I had a conversation with the CEO of Agtar at a trade fair many years ago, and he openly admitted that they were selling Hella's HPR and had also acquired the name. Supposedly, even with the blessing of Hella (which I can't verify), because Hella doesn't distribute the HPR in Germany.


he even writes about it openly on his website.


Here's something else:

http://wohnmobile.net/forum/elektro/messages/3699.html

CU Gremlin.

Good day everyone!

Let me introduce myself: My name is Thomas Rücker, my nickname is 'Diesel,' and I am the manufacturer and distributor of the product being discussed here. I am also a passionate user of various internet forums that focus on automotive technology and electronics. I stumbled upon this discussion by chance while on Google, and I couldn't resist the urge to 'peek.' I hope I am allowed to address each of the points that have been raised here.

First of all: Sorry, it turned out to be much longer than I thought it would be. I hope it's not too boring.

'Temperature-compensated chargers are old news!' Absolutely. It's certainly not a new invention of mine. However, my car didn't have one installed, so I modified it. And since I couldn't find one on the market (although I didn't really search extensively), and since I enjoy tinkering, that's how my first charger came about. I used it for several months. Then I met people who had similar problems to mine, and I built chargers for them as well. After a while, it took on a life of its own, and I decided to start producing the chargers commercially. That's how it all began around mid-2003. Meanwhile, several versions of these MicroCharge controllers have emerged.

'Nobody needs something like that, because the original controls aren't that bad!' Yes and no! The 'no' first: The average car driver probably doesn't need it if they've been driving without any problems so far. It certainly wouldn't hurt, but whether it would provide a noticeable benefit for everyone, I'm not sure I'd bet on it.

Regarding 'yes': If you frequently encounter problems with the power supply, you will eventually start looking for errors and optimizing the system. What is the idle current consumption? How does it behave during operation? Does it consume a lot of power on short trips? Is the charging voltage correct? Is the battery temperature within the permissible range? Is the generator output sufficient? There are many potential issues, and a workshop will certainly find and fix the most obvious ones. In that case, the battery should certainly last longer than 3 years. If not, you will need to carefully examine where the problem lies. The charging voltage is the most important factor in this regard. It's not about whether the charging voltage is 14.12V or 14.24V; that's insignificant. But the general trend must be correct, otherwise problems are inevitable. You can't charge a battery that's 40°C hot with 14.2V, because it will be damaged. Conversely, it's pointless to offer a battery that's freezing at -10°C only 13.8V, because very little charging current will flow. I think it's clear what's important.

Furthermore, these regulators offer several advantages when measuring the voltage at the positive terminal of the battery. A noticeable increase in charging current (due to the compensation of the voltage drop on the 'B+' line) and the resulting significant reduction in charging times are perhaps the most important benefits. Again, the question arises as to how severely the vehicle is affected by the voltage drop in each individual case. When the battery is placed under the rear seat or in the trunk, the potential benefits are significant. However, even when the battery is located in the engine compartment, voltage drops of 0.3V or more are often observed on the 'B+' line between the alternator and the battery.

'Measuring the electrolyte temperature on the outside of the housing results in incorrect readings. Well, I cannot confirm that. At an ambient temperature of 20°C and an electrolyte temperature of 40°C, the sensor measures at least 38°C, and likely even more. But never mind: The main thing is that the charging voltage is roughly appropriate for the ambient temperature, and the battery temperature deviates from that as little as possible. That alone achieves a lot.' The discussion about the thermal resistance of polypropylene housings is therefore misleading.

'There are plenty of nonsensical products on the market for car accessories!' Yes, unfortunately, that is the case. It's incredible how little some suppliers think of their customers: fuel-saving magnets, ceramic or Teflon-containing oils and oil additives, battery pulsers for permanent installation in the vehicle's electrical system, chemical substances that are poured into damaged batteries and are supposed to make them work again. A trail of destruction wherever you look. But: what's the point? It's no wonder that you first have to take some hits when you offer a product where the customer has to 'believe' in the positive effect. But that is exactly the reason why I offer a lot of technical information with some scientific depth about it. These can be objectively compared and verified by interested parties. Furthermore, they confirm the beneficial effects of proper operating conditions for lead-acid batteries. This often turns technically knowledgeable individuals into customers. I don't know what the future holds, but as far as I'm aware, a surprisingly large proportion of my customers are engineers and people with above-average technical understanding. That surprised me, and it doesn't really go against the meaningfulness of the concept.

'The more components there are, the greater the risk of failure!' There's generally nothing to argue against this, and I would largely agree with it. A weakness of the MicroCharge regulators is that there is an additional cable running between the regulator and the battery. This cable, of course, can fail. Also, the external cable that runs between the alternator and the regulator can, especially if it is not carefully routed and secured, be an additional cause of failure. All I can say in response is that, so far (I have been selling these regulators for 16 months), I have not become aware of a single failure. Neither broken cables nor defective electronics. Therefore, I believe this 'problem' is more of an academic nature and also depends on the care taken during the connection process.

'Gute Regler arbeiten nach der 'IoU-Kennlinie', die 'UI-Kennlinie' ist billiger und taugt nichts!'Es ist jetzt leider nicht ganz klar geworden, was genau eine 'IoU-Kennline' sein soll. Zumindest ich kenne sie nicht. Daher gehe ich davon aus, daß 'IUoU' gemeint war. Mal davon abgesehen, daß normale Lichtmaschinenregler in PKWs üblicherweise alle nach der UI-Kennlinie regeln und auch MicroCharge-Regler das tun: Was hilft der Batterie ein Regler, der ein u.a. zeit- und ladestromgesteuertes Ladeprogramm 'fährt', aber der nicht wissen kann, wie lange die Lichtmaschine überhaupt Strom liefert? Zumal man im PKW, Wohmobil oder Nutzfahrzeug kaum auf so lange Ladezeiten kommt, daß eine IUoU-Kennlinie besonders sinnvoll wäre. Der Regler hängt doch fast ausschließlich in der UI-Phase.

Diagram 'IUoU':
. In particular, compensating for voltage drops between the alternator and the positive terminal of the battery seems important and well-suited to significantly reduce charging times through increased charging currents, thereby solving a wide range of problems associated with frequent short trips and cyclical loads in taxis, auxiliary heaters, etc. . Even a higher current consumption when the device is idle can be mitigated with such regulators, although not completely or permanently, but at least partially and for a limited time.

I sincerely hope that these lines have been helpful. If the relevant forum administrator considers my text to be hidden advertising, he is of course free to delete it. Otherwise, I am always open to constructive criticism of products or the website (which will be changing significantly in early December, as the pages are currently being revised). I really don't want to be put in the same category as sellers of more 'esoteric' products. And I am constantly surprised by how quickly and harshly some people react when they find out that someone is trying to earn a living from the subject of the discussion. I never fully understood it, because we all earn our living doing something, and I think most people do that in a respectable way that doesn't involve anything shameful.

Best regards, Tom.

PS: I've been using the nickname 'Diesel' in various forums for years, so please don't take it as arrogance if I post here in your 'Turbodiesel Forum' using that same nickname. I just like the comfortable feel of diesel engines, and I appreciate identifying with their powerful and effective operating principle.http://www.microcharge.de/w124/IUoU.gif{MARKER}

Hello Thomas (Diesel),

Diesel wrote:

.... I just stumbled upon this discussion on Google by chance, and I couldn't resist the urge to "peek" at it.

Well, I hope this isn't the only time...

Quote:

I hope I am allowed to address each of the points that have been raised here.

It's good that you're clarifying some things objectively.

Quote:

....I have been using the nickname "Diesel" in various forums for years, so please don't take it as arrogance if I post here in your "Turbodiesel Forum" and use the same nickname.

I'm just surprised that the name was still available...

Quote:

I just like the comfortable diesel engines, and I like to identify with their powerful operating principle.

Cozy? ... Now, with modern diesel engines, you really have to search to find that "comfort factor."

I just like the comfortable diesel engines, and I like to identify with their effective operating principle.

Huh?

So, I think that's nonsense, not at all cozy.


Otherwise, I'm strongly in favor of leaving the text as it is, because I have no objections to it.

I've already hinted at how I see the purpose of this discussion ('trying to force something that doesn't belong'). Because if my mother's battery isn't draining too quickly, then the tried-and-true principle of UI charging might not be entirely wrong.
More short distances can only be covered on foot.

btw: When I saw the crafting website, I immediately thought of FINGER .


Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

'Cu Gremlin'

Sure: Of course, I know where I am! In the Turbodiesel community. Actually, you really shouldn't have let me in, because our 'Atze' unfortunately doesn't have a TURBOCHARGER...

Not even a G- or Comprex loader. The only thing it was loaded with was 70 liters of diesel fuel and 10 liters of heating oil for the auxiliary heater... But I still like it because it's a very kind and good-natured vehicle that doesn't take anything badly and takes us everywhere. Cozy, just like that.

It's wide enough to stop a few TDIs behind me...

Best regards, Tom.

Gremlin wrote:

Please take a look at the Bosch catalog for Lima and starter motors. :-)The regulators are explained there.

Is it available online anywhere?
I can only find spare parts in the Ecat, but no descriptions of how things work.

on-desk
while Klingon is on the counter

CU Gremlin.

Does anyone know if this terminal 15 input only provides a switching voltage, or does it also feed the actual voltage value into the controller?
If the latter, one could save the act of connecting the exciter diode input to the regulator to the battery positive terminal.

Hello Ulf,

Your regulator should have an external 'L' terminal and a terminal 15. As you correctly stated, the 'L' terminal controls the charging function, among other things. Terminal 15 on the regulator is a control input that turns the regulator on and off and controls the basic function of the pre-excitation. However, this is not only triggered by turning the ignition key, but also when the voltage on this terminal drops, for example, when the engine is started. The purpose of this is to prevent the alternator from unnecessarily braking the engine during starting. Neither of the two wires can be used as a sensor. It is likely that modifying the regulator would be difficult due to the monolithic technology used. However, the regulator, via the connectors, is also connected to the generator with 'B+'. If you disconnect this connection and instead connect it externally to the positive terminal of the battery, you solve the problem of the voltage drop between the alternator and the battery's positive terminal. Some regulators also have a terminal labeled 'S,' which stands for 'Sense.' If the regulator has such a connection, it should already be connected to the positive terminal of the battery.

I can provide more specific information if you share your BOSCH regulator number. It's best to include the alternator's part number.

Greetings, Tom.

Diesel wrote:

Your regulator should have an exposed terminal "L" and a terminal 15. As you correctly wrote, terminal "L" switches on the charging control, among other things. Terminal 15 is a control input that turns the regulator on and off and controls the basic function of pre-excitation.

Hi Tom,

I took a closer look at my fuel-injection system earlier and removed the regulator.

The external connections are L (charge control) and DFM (load signal), but there is no 15 pin as I initially thought.

In the generator, the regulator still has a ground connection, a B+ connection, and a direct connection to the stator windings – and, of course, the brush contacts.

What signals are used to turn the device on and off? It can only go through L, right?

What I also find hard to believe is that these controllers are supposedly not supposed to have temperature compensation.
My voltmeter shows slightly higher voltage after a cold start than when the engine is warm (or I might be misinterpreting what I'm seeing). I've only recently posted the ad, and I'm not yet sure how charging will work during the peak summer months.

Thank you for your explanations .

'L' terminal simply switches from ground potential to positive when the generator is started. It can only be used to switch loads, but not for taking measurements. The wiring diagram of modern controllers clearly illustrates what I mean.

As described on the page, not all connections are available on every control panel. Just check if you can isolate and bring out the 'B+' connection between the generator and the regulator externally.

Furthermore, BOSCH controllers sometimes also have a 'temperature compensation.' I've put that in quotation marks because, in reality, no truly designed circuit performs this compensation. Instead, the essentially unavoidable temperature drift is simply used for compensation (yes, even our European engineers are now 'thinking outside the box' and using the same transistor for at least two functions... ). What I mean is that the regulation is not exactly characterized by a high degree of precision. But still: they do serve their purpose.

Greetings, Tom.

What I also find hard to believe is that such controllers are supposed to have no temperature compensation.

They do, but what do you want to do with the current light machine temperature?
Have you tried it after fully charging the battery and using the lights, heated seats, and rear heater?

I just dug out my very first car modification book, and it includes instructions for building an external Lucas regulator, with a deliberately incorporated temperature compensation feature .

CU Gremlin.

ulf wrote:

What I also find hard to believe is that these controllers are supposedly not supposed to have temperature compensation. My voltmeter shows slightly higher voltage after a cold start than when the engine is warm (or I might be misinterpreting what I'm seeing). I've only recently posted the ad, and I'm not yet sure how charging will work during the peak summer months. Thank you for your explanations

.

Hello Ulf,

They have a "rudimentary" temperature compensation because the internal reference voltage can be easily given a temperature coefficient that is close to that of a lead-acid battery. The problem is often that both the absolute voltage accuracy and the temperature coefficient are significantly shifted due to the aging of the regulator. An alternator is not exactly the ideal environment for long-lasting electronics; it's more like a temperature cycle and humidity torture chamber. And it is also known that manufacturers are not exactly paid prices for space equipment, even though the requirements are sometimes higher. More like: The motto is: "It just needs to last until the technician has been paid or the warranty has expired."

Unfortunately, in addition to the charging strategy, there are still a few problems. One is the self-discharge rate, and another is the short, insufficient charging cycles (the distance to Aldi is too short). The quiescent current of some electronic components in the car now requires a more complex power management system than a laptop. The second problem is an acid density gradient within each individual cell. Ideally, each individual battery cell would have a mechanical stirrer.

Now, everyone can consider how much more expensive the battery can be if it lasts twice as long, and what kind of technology one can buy with that money. Is it a differentiating feature that justifies a higher price for the vehicle manufacturer?

Sincerely,
Christian

Gremlin wrote:

Temperature compensation. . . They do, but what do you want to do with the current light machine temperature?

Okay, at least roughly adjust the output voltage to match the battery's requirements .
My regulator (the circuit likely resembles Tom's image, but without the 15, W, and S markings) does not have strong thermal contact with the alternator; its cooling fins are even located in the intake airflow. Therefore, the charging voltage should be adjusted at least approximately based on the internal temperature of the engine compartment.

Quote:

I just dug out my very first car modification book, and it includes instructions for building an external alternator regulator, with a deliberately incorporated temperature compensation feature

.
I also have something like that on my shelf .
It would likely be difficult to replace the Bosch circuit with a homemade solution.

By the way, with my regulator, you can no longer access any (visible) soldering points for the brushes -> so, it's disposable when the brushes wear out.

Hello Tom,

As the person who 'initiated' this discussion, I think it's great that you, as the developer/manufacturer, are here to answer questions.
After the initial, quite sobering responses, a very lively and expert-driven discussion has emerged from it .

What I'm still interested in regarding your 'microcharge' (and what I haven't found on the website) is the mechanical design. The use in cars, especially in the engine compartment, requires a particularly robust design.

I simply can't resist asking this question because I earn my money as a developer for railway electronics (and not at Märklin ), and I have often seen electronics that have been damaged over time.

How long is the temperature sensor cable, actually? I have a 'summer vehicle' where the engine is in the back and the battery is in the front . 'Surely, the microcharge should be making a significant difference here?'

Best regards,
Kassen Oldewurtel (This appears to be a proper noun, possibly a brand name or a specific location. Without more context, it's difficult to provide a more accurate translation.)

Hello Kassen,

The mechanical design is quite conventional. However, components that are susceptible to vibration are secured with silicone on the circuit board. I pay very close attention to such details because I have personally spent many years repairing damaged components, or those that have become detached due to sloppy manufacturing and temperature fluctuations during operation, and re-soldering connections. The cable connecting the sensor and controller housings is only 70cm long and, for technical reasons, cannot be extended, shortened, or disconnected, as this could alter the control characteristics of the controller. Therefore, the two units are permanently connected. This means that both components must be installed in close proximity to the battery, where, based on experience, there are typically very few vibrations and where moderate temperatures usually prevail. Furthermore, the housings are insulated to prevent moisture from entering. Under normal circumstances, there should be no problems. A cable, no longer than approximately 5 meters, is then run from the regulator to the alternator, the stock regulator is removed from the brush holder, and the cable from the MicroCharge regulator is connected in its place. Standard connectors can then be used there. Of course, the connection of this cable to the alternator, which is usually mounted opposite the vehicle chassis, must be carefully executed to prevent cable breakage.

Good night, Tom.