Feinstaub + Partikelfilter und die Leistung | Posts 16+

Hello Roger,
Unfortunately, that's the way it is; the legislator 'wants' something, and they get it.
It's 'similar' to how it is with 'statistics'!
Best regards,
Günther.

Hello,


It's 'similar' to how it is with the 'statistics'!

Exactly, never trust a statistic that you haven't personally fabricated !

I vaguely remember hearing something about how a catalytic converter (or three-way catalyst) only reaches its full catalytic effect when it's at operating temperature, which takes approximately 12 km. However, I believe this is contradictory because most people who drive short distances tend to buy gasoline cars. Considering the typical driving profile of someone like a housewife or city dweller (I don't mean to offend anyone with these terms; they are just examples), one realizes that the catalytic converter doesn't even reach its operating temperature on those short distances, or if it does, the car is already turned off again. Therefore, for me, this supposedly environmentally friendly gasoline vehicle is pure hypocrisy when used for short trips. Of course, things look completely different on longer journeys (depending on driving speed ). However, as I said, short-distance driving profiles are more typical for a gasoline engine.By the way, I would rather drive behind a 'smelly' diesel engine than behind a cold gasoline engine that releases half of the mixture unburned .

@ampac:

Well, a lot has changed with the newer standards. In addition to electrically heated lambda sensors, there are special programs in the engine control unit to bring the catalytic converter up to temperature. This includes, among other things, a secondary air intake into the exhaust system so that a temperature-increasing afterburning process can take place. Then, although the average gasoline engine sounds like an exhaust manifold gasket blowing, the exhaust cleaning system starts much earlier than it used to, before 12 km. I'm not really a fan of gasoline engines (anymore), but a Euro 4 gasoline engine equipped in this way actually doesn't smell of unburned fuel when you drive behind it. Even the cloud in the garage, immediately after starting and driving out, remains very tolerable. The soot cloud from my Euro 3 TDI is somewhat more annoying, especially in winter. When closing the garage door, I definitely hold my breath .

@Roger:

Oops . Admittedly, I haven't been interested in the details of Otto engine technology for quite some time now.

Some diesel engines definitely have a bad smell (e.g., my AFN ), but my nose reacts more strongly to the smell of cold gasoline fumes than to diesel exhaust (although diesel exhaust isn't exactly perfume either ). However, this strong smell from cold fuel is mainly noticeable in older or very old vehicles (sometimes even at operating temperature ).

Roger wrote:

........... but the exhaust cleaning system activates much earlier than after 12 km. I'm not a fan of gasoline engines (anymore), but a Euro 4 gasoline engine equipped like this actually doesn't smell of unburned fuel when it's cold, if you're driving behind it.

Hi,

It always depends on how high the outside temperature is.
In the following document: from the KBA (as of 2004) (Note: 2.9MB in size), you can see (at least for some vehicles - it was apparently not measured for all) what the emission levels of CO and HC (which is what you smell) are at -7°C, expressed in g/km. In most cases, the values exceed those of the standard measurement cycle by more than a factor of 10 !
Unfortunately, I don't know at what ambient temperature (and therefore engine temperature) the measurement cycle for determining the exhaust emissions classification is performed (20°C??). I am also interested in how it works for diesel engines, but so far I have not found any data on that .

Best regards,
Crunch.

Hello fellow diesel enthusiasts,

According to scientific studies, diesel vehicles (trucks, buses, and cars) are responsible for approximately 30% of the fine particulate matter problem. Industrial facilities, households, and other forms of individual transportation contribute the remaining portion.
A housewife can generate more fine particulate matter pollution with her vacuum cleaner than some diesel cars.
But where does the discussion about trucks, buses, and vans fit into all of this?

Are driving bans for trucks without particulate filters conceivable? I don't think so!

Because then, many large companies would have to halt production because the 'just-in-time' principle could no longer be maintained.
And that costs jobs!

For years, companies have been dismantling their rail connections and relying on truck transport! And why? Because the topic of rail freight has been completely neglected, first in Bonn and now in Berlin. Rail freight is too slow and inflexible.
(For this reason, the postal service completely discontinued rail transport.)
Every year, the railway company dismantles hundreds of kilometers of tracks and invests in prestige projects such as high-speed connections between Berlin and Hamburg.

Truck traffic is expected to increase by 40% over the next 5 years. Eichel will be happy about that with his toll system!

In my opinion, those who are already more likely to be found at the lower end of the income scale were misled by politicians' words about long commutes to their workplaces, and therefore need a cost-effective mode of transportation.

But we need to stimulate the economy! The banks have too much money, and the automotive industry is complaining about a lack of domestic demand.

Perhaps we will be lucky, and Bush's love of travel continues, and he sends his armies as forerunners to other countries; then at least we can still export our 'old' products there.

Regards,
Golfchriss

Golfchriss wrote:

... According to scientific studies, diesel vehicles (trucks, buses, and cars) are responsible for approximately 30% of the problem of particulate matter pollution. ...

15%... then your statement is correct.

http://www.tuev-sued.de/homepage.asp?/start/showarticle.asp?link=/start/aktuelle_meldungen/ibdhirinpjxx/ibdhirinpjxx.html

@Bertil

Oops!

Da hab ich wohl etwas zuviel auf die Medien vertraut! Sorry!

But that only reinforces my perception that the 'common people' should pay for the consequences of failed policies!

And with Sunday driving bans or similar actions, the problem cannot be solved .

Regards,
Golfchriss

Regarding the topic of particulate matter and what a filter actually does (or doesn't do), I posted https://community.dieselschrauber.org/en/viewtopic.php?t=9026 a link about it.

If what that guy is saying is true, then the filters (at least regarding particulate matter) are actually quite counterproductive .

I assume that the taxes on diesel vehicles without particulate filters will increase significantly.
The ones with particulate filters will remain the same.

So it's just about making money!!!!!

All the discussions about the benefits are just a smokescreen to hide the real reason.

Like everything else happening in Germany right now. See the EU's eastward expansion!

Hi! I also see things similarly to most of you, and here are three quotes from the parallel thread /viewtopic.php?t=8999&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=24 that very nicely get to the point:

1. Car drivers in Germany are and will remain the 'cash cows' of the nation.
All possible ways out of this situation must be blocked.
'Those who have not contributed to the state's coffers through 'fairy tale taxes' (taxes on new cars) for several years will be exploited by this tax, as their previously environmentally exemplary car is suddenly branded as a polluter due to new emission standards.'
(4. because environmentally conscious drivers, with their Prussian obedience and blind faith in authority, still tend to put up with it...)

Honestly, I'm quite worried about how you, people who claim to be thoughtful and discerning, blindly follow the media and essentially have your thoughts, feelings, and actions dictated by external forces.
One year it's the ozone hole, then ground-level ozone, the next year nobody talks about it anymore, and instead there's something with acrylamide or nitrophen in the food??, only to stage a fine particulate matter hysteria the following year that didn't exist before??

How can someone send such a poorly researched piece? It borders on propaganda and deliberately misleading the public.
I didn't see the post, but if the 'test' really went down like that, then it's propaganda and a way of dumbing down the population.
Specifically, it is likely a preliminary measure of many more to come, intended to pave the way for future 'penalties' against diesel vehicles without filters (e.g., increased taxes on polluting diesels, city driving bans, etc.)

However, in my opinion, the current CDI/PD vehicles are also partly to blame for the negative image of today's diesel passenger cars, or at least paved the way for the current media frenzy.

The fact is that many surprisingly young and seemingly well-maintained vehicles produce a noticeable burst of black smoke during acceleration. Whether and how these bursts of soot relate to actual particulate matter pollution remains to be seen. However, given that the media-influenced, superficial, and uncritical individual is primarily driven by visual impressions, these bursts of soot unfortunately damage the image of diesel engines.

There are two opposing theories regarding the cause of this soot emission.

(1) Soot accumulates in the partial load range with low flow velocity as loose material in the exhaust tract and is suddenly blown out by gas pulses with high flow velocity – the 'dust cannon' theory.

(2) The engine control unit deliberately exceeds the soot emission limits during the 'turbo lag' phase. This results in a brief burst of soot emissions that is not yet noticeable in the ECE driving cycle, while simultaneously providing the engine with a more responsive and 'sporty' feel.

I can't quite imagine that scenario (1), because the black smoke deposits also appear at short intervals or after prolonged full acceleration, and there wasn't enough time in between for the soot to accumulate.

In the case of hypothesis (2), it is certainly possible to blame the automotive industry and/or the regulatory bodies (deviation from driving cycles and real-world typical operating conditions) because, if the black smoke emissions actually result from a deliberate engine tuning, then the visible plume was knowingly accepted.

What do you think? Which thesis is correct?

To vent my frustration again: If they actually dare to impose a punitive tax on us for this ridiculous 5% , then I can completely understand any corresponding adjustments* that are made (after all, you want to fulfill the 'smoker declaration' as well as possible, since you're paying for it anyway).

This could be, for example, 10 kg of rotting fish in the trunk as a measure to reduce fuel consumption, or something else entirely.

Regards,
Holger.

SeatArosa1.7SDI wrote:

(1) Soot accumulates in the partial load range with low flow velocity as loose material in the exhaust tract and is suddenly blown out by gas pulses with high flow velocity – the "dust cannon" theory.

AFAIK, the rapidly changing exhaust temperature also plays a role, especially in the cloud of smoke that comes out when you release the accelerator.

2.) The problem with the black smoke plumes that one often sees coming from cars is that it's usually impossible to tell whether the vehicle has been modified (what's the actual percentage of TDIs and CDIs that have been tuned? *g*) or not, or whether it's in good working order (e.g., the EGR valve isn't closing properly, the air filter is completely clogged, etc.).

Best regards,
Crunch.

As far as I know, the rapidly changing exhaust temperature also plays a role, especially with the puff of smoke that comes out when you take your foot off the gas.

Hmm... could you please elaborate on that?

Regarding 2.), the problem with the black smoke that one often sees coming from cars is that, in most cases, you don't know whether the vehicle has been modified or 'tuned'.

Are there many taxis and Mercedes A-Class cars with elderly men wearing hats that have been modified or customized?

A possible error scenario could be: That the EGR valve closes too slowly. (Due to stiffness or a slow change in pressure within the control pneumatic system, possibly caused by defects in pneumatic hoses/components.) This would explain the short burst of soot and the subsequent lack of soot despite full load.

Nevertheless, I am quite certain that even completely intact vehicles produce a visible puff of soot. There can't be that many defective PD/CDI systems out there!

SeatArosa1.7SDI wrote:

A possible error scenario could be: The EGR valve closes too slowly. (This could be due to stiffness or a slow change in pressure within the control pneumatic system, caused by defects in pneumatic hoses/components.) This would explain the short burst of soot and the subsequent lack of soot despite full load. Nevertheless, I am quite certain that even completely intact vehicles produce a visible puff of soot. There can't be that many defective PD/CDI systems out there!

I can now only share my observations to the best of my ability.
"My ASZ engine also produces a puff of smoke when accelerating under full load, especially in the lower gears at the beginning. Basically, it doesn't seem to matter how I've driven the last few kilometers. It might be slightly more noticeable after driving in heavy city traffic, but I don't think it has much to do with partial load operation. Perhaps soot particles initially settle somewhere in the exhaust system due to low exhaust gas velocity, although not much is produced during partial load either."
I highly doubt that a functioning mass airflow sensor (MAF) can prevent this sudden burst of soot. In my profession, I work with flow measurement myself. The problem with MAF sensors is that they require a certain settling time, and secondly, these sensors become less accurate the faster they respond.
Here's another observation: During a recent headlight replacement, the turbo hose on the intercooler had to be removed. Since the clamp doesn't allow for proper assessment of installation, the hose promptly slipped down shortly after, allowing me to briefly hear the pressure buildup. Comparing the acceleration behavior with the pressure buildup in this situation, nothing surprises me anymore.
That would also explain the effect with the small tolerances. Here, the motor is running ahead of the control system...
Okay, it's possible that something is broken, for example, the VTG (Variable Turbine Geometry) might be malfunctioning or the MAF sensor (Mass Air Flow sensor) could be faulty, but to investigate this, I'm going to put in a diagnostic code now:

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dwa.
According to recent announcements from the Federal Ministry of Health, a ban on baked goods is being considered for reasons of public health protection. This is because particle emissions already exceed the Euro4 vehicle emission limits by a factor of 1,000,000 during grain harvesting, and the exposure of customers in bakeries to flour dust during purchases can no longer be tolerated.
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I doubt that a functioning LMM can prevent this soot surge.

In the parallel thread, I had the following thought:

Perhaps the air volume in the intake passages between the turbocharger and the engine is playing a role? This volume must first be 'charged' due to its storage capacity, so that the mass airflow sensor (MAF) reports a high mass flow rate early on, even though the actual mass flow into the cylinders is lower (because part of the MAF's measured mass flow is being used to charge the total volume).

Since this dead volume is very small, it can only be a highly dynamic phenomenon that occurs when there is a very rapid transition from thrust cutoff to full power.

@joegolf: Excellent article, your writing is top-notch.