Strombelastbarkeit der Zündschalterkontakte? | Posts 32+

ulf wrote:

If you (or someone else) happen to come across LED taillights for the 9N, please give me a tip or a link!

Hi,

"Ugh, that's bad, I just checked myself and found nothing. To be honest, I thought the selection for a Polo would be larger than for mine, thanks to demand. I didn't want to cause any unnecessary confusion."

Jan6K wrote:

"I'm not sure what it is... the other day, something like that was in front of me at an intersection. It looked very flashy and the LEDs were so bright, they almost blinded you. I doubt it had the required approval (ABE), so that probably won't help you either."

Right, some people install these simple aftermarket parts (which, as Ulf's obviously have, make the reflectors shine brightly and thus illuminate a large area) into their "makeshift setups," and they only achieve that brightness thanks to a 10-20 degree beam angle. This means that the brake light is only faintly visible from the side [and for the truck driver who is sitting higher up], and if you're within that beam angle, well...

Theory 1.
Generally, LED headlights are quite bright (including those with a wider beam angle and original equipment), and I believe this is because LEDs emit a very narrow spectrum of light, whereas incandescent bulbs have a much wider spectrum. The regulations specify a light output of "xyz" within a certain range. With a narrower spectrum, the intensity needs to be higher to achieve the specified light output, whereas with a wider spectrum, the same output can be achieved with a lower intensity. The human eye apparently perceives this peak intensity much better than the same amount of light spread over a wider range. Ultimately, this suggests that the regulations are based on outdated standards.

Theory2
The beam angle is not optimal (let's say 50°), and when viewed from the side at an angle of xyz, the required luminous intensity for the turn signal is not achieved, which results in the light output being slightly higher than necessary. The legislator also stipulates that the brake light must have at least four times the power of the turn signal (which is why the 21W and 5W values exist). If the light output is increased fourfold during braking, it can cause glare.

It's a shame that there's no option for Ulf to obtain a certified product. However, I have to admit that this version of the reflector illumination is the most elegant, and it raises the question of why a manufacturer hasn't legalized something like this. The version built by Ulf meets the beam angle and brightness requirements (which isn't really a problem anymore). The entire unit, including the base, could be tested and approved as type xyz. The only reason I can imagine for this not being done is that somewhere in the law or directive, it's stipulated that this type of lamp with the appropriate base must have an electronic power consumption of 21W (which would be very outdated). Implementing heat dissipation via a load resistor would likely significantly shorten the LED lifespan due to the high temperatures, without integrating a fan into the lamp. Furthermore, such a lamp could cause problems in a newer vehicle due to the currents measured by the onboard diagnostics.

"Also Ulf, in my case, after the initial start, I experienced a moderate shock with the rear lights and the third brake light (all LED and individually type-approved). The ESP-ASR system went out of operation with a *beep, beep, beep* sound. For diagnostics, the wiring is connected to the ESP B+ via a 1k resistor. Ultimately, an end resistor was also required, which measured the voltage at the brake pedal when not depressed, ensuring it remained below 2.5V (low level)."

guste100 wrote:

48€ für zwei Birnen ohne ABE? Wow!

I returned it (which was possible thanks to the 1-month right of withdrawal).
While the lights immediately reach 100% brightness, the light distribution is much more diffuse because virtually all the LEDs are located more or less outside the focal point of the brake light reflector.
The filament of the 21W bulb, on the other hand, produces a much brighter main beam directed perpendicularly backwards, towards the eyes of the driver behind. Therefore, the LED brake light is perceived more as an "instant flash" with relatively low alarm effect, while the incandescent bulb "hits" the driver behind a bit later.
Therefore, I now consider the safety benefits of LED lights in preventing rear-end collisions to be too questionable to justify keeping the expensive parts without the required approval. But ultimately, it's something you have to decide for yourself.

Man, I was laughing so hard at Ulf. It's not meant to be mean .
Ulf is upset about the prices for the H7 Bine.

/viewtopic.php?t=17255&highlight=lifespan

Right when I was reading about "ordering LED bulbs," I was laughing so HARD. I had to spend 48€ for 2 BULBS8O, but I definitely don't want to spend more than 5€ for H7 bulbs.

Good that he didn't touch it .

Sounds totally funny, sorry, it's not meant to be mean .

T3Surfer wrote:

Right when I was reading about "ordering LED bulbs," I was laughing so HARD – 48€ for 2 BULBS ! I was willing to spend that, BUT for H7 bulbs, I definitely didn't want to spend more than 5€

. I explained above why I would prefer LEDs in all the brake lights (incandescent bulbs become bright much slower -> unnecessary risk of rear-end collisions with impatient drivers). The corresponding safety benefit would have been worth the money to me, and LED bulbs with a comparable light output to 21W incandescent bulbs simply cost about the same from all the sources I know.

Regarding H7 bulbs, there are no comparable reasons for me to pay an unnecessarily high price for them.

"Ulf, you're absolutely right about the safety improvement, that's clear! In traffic, I notice the third LED brake light first because it reacts faster and is located in the center! Isn't that already a safety benefit? Hmm, usually, a short tap of the brake pedal is enough to tell those tailgaters to keep their distance!"
Since in most TDI vehicles, when the brake and accelerator are pressed simultaneously, the engine management system (MSTG) immediately cuts off the fuel, it might be possible to control the brake lights using a button .

T3Surfer wrote:

Hmm, normally, a short tap of the brake pedal is enough to tell those tailgaters to keep their distance!

However, it only works on the tailgaters in my area if that tap creates enough deceleration that they also have to brake hard (aside from the risk of an accident and the question of fault when braking unnecessarily).
And 1 km later, everything is forgotten, meaning they are back on my bumper .

Hi,

Quote:

And 1 km later, it's all forgotten, meaning they're back on my bumper again.

In that case, the only solution is an old digital camera placed on the rear shelf, whose (weak, non-blinding) autofocus light can be turned on manually using a button...

As long as the device doesn't emit any light, it's probably even legal.

Best regards,

Jan.

Hello Ulf,

Should they have used white LEDs back then? Since when has this technology actually been available in mass production?

Did you happen to use WHITE LEDs for your modification?

Background:
There is no 'white' LED. The white, often bluish, color is produced by exciting a phosphor layer with the (LED) UV light.
This light has a very small spectral component in the red region.

That's why you have this orange tone .

All car manufacturers use red LEDs for brake lights, which, however, can be installed in a clear housing.

A brake light, assuming the correct LEDs are used, requires no more than 15 to 20 LEDs.

With 60 (that's sixty!!) red LEDs, you would have a real 'headlight' that would definitely blind the person following you.

Best regards,
Kassen Oldewurtel.

oldewurtel wrote:

Did you happen to use WHITE LEDs for your modification?

No, red ones - to allow as much of the emitted light as possible to escape outwards, rather than filtering out most of it.

Quote:

A brake light, assuming the use of proper LEDs, requires no more than 15 to 20 LEDs. With 60 (in words: sixty!!) red LEDs, you would have a real "headlight" that would certainly blind the person behind you.

Maybe I installed the wrong LEDs then. ... anyway, the subjective glare caused by the main brake lights in the main beam (especially towards the rear) will not be surpassed by the additional brake light, no matter from what viewing angle.

ulf wrote:

Maybe I installed the wrong LEDs

.
Let's try a different approach: _Which_ LEDs did you install, and what current are you using to power them? Do you have the datasheet handy?

It doesn't look very bright at all. Have you ever tried running the LEDs outside of the enclosure? It's possible that the red filter in the enclosure is only allowing a significantly different wavelength of light to pass through, or that it's scattering the light a lot.

Regards,
Guste.

guste100 wrote:

ulf wrote: Maybe I installed the wrong LEDs . Let's try a different approach: Which LEDs did you install, and what current are you using to power them? Do you have the datasheet handy?

These LEDs -> click here for the datasheet.
Operating current = approximately 18 mA.
I know that up to 40 mA might be possible, but at 80°C, the current should already be reduced to 20 mA. And I suspect that in intense summer heat, the temperatures in the trunk lid could already reach those levels...?

Quote:

It doesn't look very bright at all. Have you ever operated the LEDs outside of the housing? It's possible that the red filter in the housing only allows a significantly different wavelength to pass through, or that it scatters the light a lot...

Behind the diffusing disc, the LEDs don't appear noticeably dimmer (unlike an incandescent bulb, where only the red portion gets through). However, on their own, they create a much more concentrated spot of light on the wall than when they are in front of the diffusing disc.

The picture of the garage is a bit misleading: just a few meters behind the "Poldi," all three brake lights appear to be roughly the same brightness.
Unfortunately, I don't have a before-and-after photo showing the 15 light bulbs (each 2.3W) inside .

I just measured the auxiliary LED light in the basement of a Corsa C.
0.24A at 13.8 volts would be approximately 15mA per unit, resulting in a clearer lens and better focus than in your image.
The light emitted from the device on the wall is quite bright, but never as bright as a 21-watt light bulb!
There are also red Power LEDs that are better focused and brighter, although they require a higher current draw.

teileklaus wrote:

There are also power LEDs that are red and have better focus and are brighter, but they consume more power.

My LEDs have a beam angle of 26° – I find that acceptable for a brake light. In addition, the diffuser widens the beam even further.

Power LEDs (such as Superflux multi-chip LEDs) are usually square components with a side length of approximately 7 mm, and I likely wouldn't have been able to properly fit or secure them along with the circuit board inside the flat enclosure.

Here's another direct photo from the back. Although digital cameras struggle to reproduce strong brightness contrasts, you can see from the "halo effects" around the lights that the LEDs aren't actually much dimmer than the 21W bulbs.
The deeper red color at the top still comes from the initial LEDs with a wavelength of 660 nm. In the meantime, I've replaced those with slightly brighter 617 nm LEDs, which produce a very similar tone to the diffuser panels behind the incandescent lamps.