TSI anstatt TDI | Posts 64+

Hello Ulf,

I completely agree. The standard fuel consumption figures are as follows (for TSI 140 / TDI 140 DPF models):

igo: 9.6 / 7.1 -> Delta 2.5
ago: 5.9 / 5.1 -> Delta 0.8

combined 7.2 / 5.8 -> Delta 1.4 (which would roughly correspond to Maxx's experiences, although with almost double the power compared to what he had in his TDI before).

That's where I was in my pre-purchase considerations regarding the topic of consumption. The maximum speed consumption will likely further shift the balance in favor of the disadvantage of the TSI engine; the question is, by how much.

Personally, I estimate that I would use approximately 2 liters more fuel per 100 kilometers for comparable performance variants, given my driving conditions. Therefore, if this were to occur (with an additional 1.40€ per liter of fuel consumption, not taking into account the price difference between regular and premium gasoline), it would cost me roughly €28 for 1000 kilometers. Therefore, this is not a magnitude where I would consider it a deal-breaker for a purchase decision, although it is a clear disadvantage compared to the TDI, which I don't think would surprise anyone.
What also interests me, based on my experience with TDIs, and where I expect significant advantages, is exactly what Maxx mentioned ("running culture, noise level") and the performance at low RPM, i.e., everything that happens before the "TDI thump." This is because, unlike a TDI, it doesn't have a turbocharger. For example, accelerating from high gears at low RPM, which frequently occurs when driving in an environmentally friendly and energy-efficient manner, is something a naturally aspirated engine simply can't do as effectively. I'm most excited about that.

Regards,
Thomas.

Does this help?

[http://www.autobild.de/test/neuwagen/artikel.php?artikel_id=11378]

Yes, that's really good and truly interesting. That's exactly what I was looking for. If you had the source (is there anything else written about it?), that would be even better.
I think the TSI performs quite well for a gasoline engine, if that's true. For frequent speedsters on German highways, gasoline remains a viable option as long as there isn't a general speed limit, of course. I'm personally preparing myself for a change in behavior regarding this matter, or I might just opt for the ASZ model, and my wife can drive the TSI to the kindergarten.

It would be interesting to see if the smaller TSI engine also consumes less fuel, which I hope is the case. At least he's only going 200 kilometers per hour right now.

Regards,
Thomas.

Okay, bitte gib mir den deutschen Text, den du übersetzt haben möchtest. The image comes from the photo gallery, where you can find other comparisons.

Hello everyone!

I performed the full-load test as discussed today.
Here are the most important details:

Power: 125 kW
Current fuel consumption: 24.5 liters.
Speed: 190 km/h (full throttle, slight uphill).
Gang: 6th.
Outside temperature: 13°C
Tank: half full.
Tires: 205/55/16 M&S.

LG
Maxx.

Hi,

Quote:

Current fuel consumption: 24.5 liters.

Crazy...

If my memory serves me correctly (it's been a few years), the full load consumption of the 1.8T engine is in a similar order of magnitude.

Could it be that the infamous cooling system, which uses Sprite injection, is also used here?

Best regards,

Jan.

Hello maxx,
"It all makes sense. The 24.5 value is likely due to the acceleration at 190 km/h and/or the incline. I'm not really worried about the fuel consumption at high speeds; the days of fast highway driving are pretty much over for me anyway (due to increased traffic, driving abroad [winter sports in Austria, summer trips to France, Spain, Italy,...], kids, costs, and problems with drivers who don't stay in the right lane or use their mirrors...)."

What makes me think is that, according to micha's source, the TSI 4l is supposed to consume more fuel than the Mercedes!!!???

Can you personally confirm, compared to your former diesel car, not only improved driving smoothness but also enhanced driving dynamics (acceleration and responsiveness, let's say acceleration from 80 to 100 km/h in the highest gear)?
It would also be very interesting in driving school if an unusually high torque were present from the idle speed. I am training myself to start without using the accelerator, and I can imagine how training with a TSI engine instead of a TDI would be in that regard. Are you doing it like that?

Regards,
Thomas.

Jan6K wrote:

Current fuel consumption: 24.5 liters Quote: Could it be that the infamous cooling system, using Sprite injection, is also used here? Hi Jan, It seems so. If excessive oil consumption manifested itself visually as dramatically as it does in diesel engines (with black smoke), turbocharged gasoline engines would have been discredited long ago. Fortunately for Otto turbo fans, their highly concentrated, full-load exhaust plume is practically invisible (what the ignorant public doesn't see can't be environmentally harmful) - well, they pay for every press of the pedal with a hefty swirl in the tank

.

For me, achieving a high level of elasticity, from 80 to 100, is more of an exception than the rule.
Since I usually drive my DSG (dual-clutch transmission) in automatic mode, it often downshifts two gears at once when I press the accelerator pedal.
I'll try doing that by driving in Tiptronic mode.
It only shifts down when you use the kickdown.
I think the way of driving without accelerating is a bit different with the DSG.
The gas pedal is being pressed automatically.
Unfortunately, I cannot assist you with that test.

LG
Maxx.

Hi,

Quote:

The 24.5 value is due to the acceleration at 190 and/or the slope.

No, not really. There is a maximum injection amount per stroke, and therefore a maximum fuel consumption per gear, because the gear ratio and the resulting stroke-to-distance ratio of the car are fixed.

"When I accelerate with the ASV (presumably a vehicle with a turbocharger) in 5th gear at 60 km/h, giving it full throttle, the fuel consumption quickly increases (until the full boost pressure is reached and the rev limiter restricts the maximum amount of fuel) to 13 liters per 100 km. If you keep your foot on the accelerator, very little changes until almost 190 km/h, which makes sense because the maximum amount of fuel is injected per stroke, and the boost pressure is definitely set to its maximum." Only when the engine speed clearly exceeds 4000 rpm does the fuel consumption decrease slightly again, even with full throttle, because we then enter the operating range where the throttle starts to limit the power.

This effect is independent of headwinds and inclines... as long as you demand full power, the maximum amount possible for that situation is injected per stroke.

I can't imagine that the TFSI engine is controlled differently in that specific application, aside from special features like cooling through multiple injections.

Best regards,

Jan.

Hello Jan,

I've never really paid close attention, but as far as I can remember, my speedometer has shown an increase in fuel consumption when I'm driving at full throttle from a flat surface into an incline. At that speed, around 205-210 km/h, the car slows down and consumes more fuel. When I drive up such an incline, the engine starts to lose RPM and consume more fuel, which, according to my understanding of physics, is because it needs to overcome the resistance of the incline, just like when you drive at full throttle against or with the wind, the fuel consumption isn't the same, which makes sense to me. Based on my vague understanding, this is related to the speed-dependent performance curves. When the engine speed drops under full load, for example when driving uphill, it injects diesel fuel up to a certain limit, as I imagine it.
My motivation for responding to your post is not to highlight what others might perceive as high fuel consumption values for gasoline engines (TSI, TFSI, FSI, or whatever they are all called) compared to TDIs at high speeds, but rather that I cannot imagine that what you described is correct.

Regards,
Thomas.

The MSG (Motor Steuergerät - Engine Control Unit) adjusts whether you're going uphill or downhill. Please read Jan's post again. There are maps and limits. The MSG operates within these. There is no "inclination" limit. If there's an incline at 210 km/h in a restricted speed zone, it will slow down, which is logical. As Jan writes, it will then exit the restricted speed zone and potentially enter a less restricted or unrestricted zone, and only then will it slightly increase the fuel injection amount. For a full-power (ERF - "Einspritzmenge Reserve Fully") setting, this value should be approximately between 13.4 and 13.6.

Hi,


Current fuel consumption: 24.5 liters.


Crazy...

If my memory serves me correctly (it's been a few years), the full load consumption of the 1.8T engine is in a similar order of magnitude.


Hello Jan,

The efficiency of the TSI has not fundamentally changed. Simply by minimizing the load, you shift the utilized load range, which, in a standard cycle, results in a reduction of energy consumption values.

At full load, the TSI engine will consume the same amount of fuel as a similarly powerful 1.8T engine.
So, essentially, the driving skills you learn in driving schools are implemented in 'hardware.'



The report from Autobild is interesting, but it sometimes compares apples and oranges.
The comparison between a 190 E 90 horsepower four-speed automatic and a C180 143 horsepower six-speed manual is quite a joke. Just comparing the engine speed at which the test must be driven reveals how different these vehicles are. They could have had the C compete against a gasoline-powered T5.
Perhaps, when comparing similar concepts like 'old' versus 'new,' it should have been demonstrated that the technological advancements in the engines were negated by the severe issues, etc., and that the 'old' version actually consumed less fuel than the 'new' one.

Best regards, Jochen.

@matthias,

I've read it again. Can we agree that there are characteristic maps (or lookup tables) in the engine control units, among other reasons, because there are factors such as inclines, headwinds, different drag coefficients (cw values), different vehicle weights, different transmission configurations, different temperatures, different driver load requirements, etc. (i.e., influencing factors)?
Or why else would they exist?

Regards,
Thomas.

But incline or headwind are definitely not factors that influence it!
If the driver requests maximum power, the engine control unit (ECU) will allow the maximum fuel injection amount, limited by the fuel pressure regulation.
Whether you're riding uphill, downhill, with the wind at your back or against it, it doesn't matter.

matthiasTDI96 wrote:

If, at 210 km/h, an ASZ (Air Spring Zone) encounters an incline, it will slow down, which is logical. And as Jan writes, it moves out of the area where the throttling is active and back into a potentially less throttled or completely unthrottled area, and only for that reason, it slightly increases the injection amount.

Okay. Sure, here's the translation:

"Just as a supplement:"

The maximum fuel injection volume in (functional) TDIs occurs at approximately 1900 rpm and decreases above that speed. This creates the typical TDI torque curve, with a peak at 1900 rpm, as a result of the interaction with the full-load efficiency curve.
Above 4000 rpm, the engine starts to lose power, and the amount of power loss increases even more rapidly than between 2000 and 4000 rpm.

Conclusion: As soon as a TDI engine, running at full throttle above 2000 rpm, is decelerated (e.g., by an incline, the end of a downhill slope, headwind, etc.), the fuel injection amount increases, and consequently, the instantaneous fuel consumption displayed on the MFA (Multi-Function Display) also increases.

Exception: The 1.9-liter engines with 150 and 160 horsepower maintain a constant maximum power output within certain RPM ranges.

Quote:

Can we agree that there are characteristic fields in the control units, among other things, because there are factors such as inclines, headwinds, different drag coefficients (cw values), different vehicle weights, different transmission configurations, different temperatures, different driver load requirements, etc. (i.e., influencing factors)? Or why else would they exist?

That is a misleading perspective.
In simple terms, the parameters that define the engine's characteristics are primarily used to determine the desired performance characteristics (torque curve) and to meet emission limits.
Take a look at the FAQ about the TDI principle .