Sch.....rott Elektronik im Auto | Posts 64+

Hi,

Unfortunately, gyroscopes are extremely sensitive devices, and they produce highly variable readings when passing through areas with temperature fluctuations (even when stationary!). Furthermore, the tolerances are also very tight, and no two sensors are exactly the same. Therefore, I would not rely solely on a signal from the gyroscope.
My navigation system would often drive through fields, but after the third "nine gyro" calibration, it finally started working correctly. Since the same gyroscope is used in the ESP system, I have significant concerns about that as well.

Hi,

Following the apparent skepticism about ESP expressed here, here are my own experiences with the ASZ engine in a 2002 Golf IV Sport Edition with 225 tires.

So far, with almost 24,000 km on the odometer, I've only managed to activate the ESP a few times, specifically twice. Once, I intentionally entered a wet, multi-lane (and empty) roundabout with too much speed. The ESP engaged relatively late, at a point when I was already almost ready to ease off the accelerator myself. So, unlike, for example, the Volvo system, it actually works. When it engaged, there was a jolt, similar to driving over a bump at the limit of adhesion and the car shifting slightly (I drive over this spot every day, and it's perfectly flat). At that moment, the car was corrected, and it also braked slightly. That was it. Not a trace of an adverse reaction, you couldn't ask for better. Perhaps the software has been updated, but I can't see any improvements.

The second time the ESP came into play a few weeks ago, when a water pipe burst in the city center and I drove directly into the frozen area while turning. The car started to severely understeer. However, the ESP intervened with a brief action, less abruptly than during the wetness test I described earlier. However, I was quite slow. But without ESP, I would have certainly hit the high curb, which I was able to narrowly avoid thanks to ESP.

Otherwise, I owe the brake assist system for preventing a rear-end collision when a woman in front of me suddenly slammed on her brakes in heavy traffic, just as the traffic light turned yellow. I was driving relatively slowly, but without BAS, I would never have been able to react so quickly and press the pedal so hard in such a short amount of time. It was just enough...

I regret that ESP is portrayed so negatively in this otherwise very knowledgeable forum. I believe the problem described by Bertil is an absolute isolated case. If that weren't the case, and if ESP actually posed a danger, VW and the other manufacturers certainly wouldn't have granted approval for it. The fact that a system-internal malfunction is apparently not being detected makes me concerned .

This statement is in stark contrast to all articles and reports in the relevant trade press. These are written by people who deal with cars of all categories on a daily basis and who often operate them at or near their limits. As far as I know, there has never been a report about a hazard caused by ESP or even ABS in that context.

The fact that even the well-established ABS (Anti-lock Braking System) is now being questioned is something I simply cannot understand. Every car owner's manual points out that braking distances may sometimes be longer. Almost every child knows this. However, the crucial difference between ABS and conventional braking is the ability to STEER while braking. Where is it written that one MUST drive directly into the obstacle without swerving? The average driver still tries to steer even during a conventional braking situation. And that's where ABS comes in; it helps with intuitively steering around the obstacle while braking. Taught in virtually every driving school course.

I'm sorry, but I can't stand by and watch these modern driving aids being unfairly criticized. They may not be a solution in every situation, but they are at least a last resort for many scenarios, and they are certainly better than a conventionally equipped car. Too bad for Ulf, those few kilos would have been a good investment ...

@olbetec:

With the Polo 9N, even with ESP, the smaller engines don't come with rear disc brakes. I find it overly economical that Skoda equips the rather large and heavy Octavia, with its payload and extreme overhang at the rear, only with drum brakes. This might be acceptable for small cars, but a braking system must be able to quickly handle a fully loaded station wagon (and not just an unloaded one!). A simple locking mechanism is not enough – especially not with ABS – and disc brakes can undoubtedly dissipate a significantly larger amount of heat. Furthermore, they have an advantage when driving downhill, as they can be lightly applied more frequently, while the drum brakes only start to assist after a certain pedal pressure due to the pre-tension of the springs. The front wipers will then be overloaded more easily.

Hello Roger,

Roger wrote:

... Once, I intentionally drove into a wet, multi-lane (and empty) roundabout at too high a speed...

I didn't criticize the behavior on wet roads; that's also acceptable in my car (not great, though... more on that later).

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Otherwise, I owe the brake assist system thanks for preventing a rear-end collision

.
I don't have one. I currently believe that the brake assist system (especially the mechanical one used by VW) is a good thing.

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I regret that ESP comes across so negatively in this otherwise very competent forum. I consider the problem described by Bertil to be an absolute exception.

... Unfortunately, as you can see from the responses to my post, this is not an isolated incident.

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If that were not the case, and if the ESP instead represented a hazard, then VW and the other manufacturers certainly would not have received approval for the ESP.

I didn't say there was a threat. I only warned them not to feel too safe because of the ESP.

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The fact that a system-internal malfunction is apparently not being detected makes me concerned .

That was exactly my point!

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This statement is in stark contrast to all articles and reports in the relevant trade press. These are written by people who deal with cars of all categories on a daily basis and who often operate them at or near their limits. As far as I know, there has never been a report about a hazard caused by ESP or even ABS in that context.

Oh, I remember an article from AMS and a report from ADAC where the ESP system of the Golf was criticized.

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The fact that, on top of everything else, the well-established ABS (Anti-lock Braking System) is now being questioned is something I simply cannot understand.

Do I have it? Well, I don't know. I personally can live without it, but I would recommend it to everyone else.

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Sorry, now I'm going to say something that might upset people, but I can't stand how one-sided these modern driving aids are, damn it.

No, I won't. You've expressed your opinion about it, and that's okay.
I don't want to condemn these mobility aids. For the average driver, this system might be worth its weight in gold, as you correctly pointed out.

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They might not be the solution in every situation, but they are at least a last resort for many scenarios, and they are definitely better than a conventionally equipped car.

That's exactly what I meant.

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Too bad for Ulf, those few kilos would have been a good investment ...

Everyone has to decide that for themselves.


Here's a quick update on my ESP:
I've had a new TCU (Transmission Control Unit) installed for a week. Apparently, the software was also significantly updated during the process, because the malfunction I described has been noticeably improved. The system now reacts more sensitively and earlier to oversteer, especially on dry road surfaces.

What does the brake assist system do?

Best regards, WarLord.

WarLord wrote:

What does the brake assist system do?

Roughly speaking:
To optimize or increase braking force at a specific pedal pressing speed.
Electronic stability control systems can also detect the "emergency situation" based on the speed at which the accelerator pedal was released and the subsequent pressing of the brake pedal.
The result is a reduction in the stopping distance.

So, is it the power brake booster or something?

Best regards, WarLord.

WarLord wrote:

So, the power brake booster or something like that?

Yes and no...

It is assumed that some accidents could have been avoided if the driver had applied the brakes more quickly and forcefully. The brake assist system takes care of that.

You should definitely check this out.
http://www.kfztech.de/kfztechnik/fahrwerk/bremsen/bremsassistent.htm

@Bertil:

That comment about the ABS was referring to vagtuning's post.

Do you perhaps have a link to the articles published in the ams or mot journals? I would be very interested in seeing them.

I actually regularly read mot, ams, GF, and other magazines. However, so far I haven't encountered anything negative about the ESP, which is why I was so surprised by this thread.

Roger wrote:

That comment about the ABS was meant to be a reply to vagtuning's post.

Sorry, I didn't remember that.

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Do you perhaps have a link with the articles in the ams or mot?

I would be very interested in seeing them.
Unfortunately, not.

Roger wrote:

The fact that, on top of everything else, the well-established ABS system is now being questioned is something I simply cannot understand. Every car owner's manual points out that braking distances may, in some cases, be extended. Almost every child knows this by now. However, the crucial difference between ABS and conventional braking is the ability to STEER while braking. Where does it say that you MUST drive straight into the obstacle without the possibility of swerving? Even the average driver tries to steer during a conventional braking situation. And that's where ABS comes in; it helps with intuitively steering around the obstacle while braking.

Braking distances don't increase under dubious circumstances, but always extend significantly when there's snow and ice. With my old Audi 100, I could disable the ABS and did some test drives on snow: the braking distance increased by about 50%. Swerving is great, but it requires having enough space to swerve into. On the highway, you often have that space, but when you're surprised by an icy intersection in the city or on a country road, there's usually no room to swerve. Besides the fact that it's also difficult to set a good hook when the ice is slippery.
Wet cobblestone streets can sometimes have a charming effect as well...
Why was the ABS system possibly switchable?
ABS can often be helpful, but unfortunately, it's not always as many people believe, and it's certainly not a sacred cow.

Why would ABS, specifically on ice, increase the braking distance? That seems illogical to me. Then the braking distance would also increase in rainy conditions, etc.

I was just thinking that you can stop faster on ice with ABS. The fact is that as soon as the wheels lock up, you're essentially sliding on ice, and it would be like driving with cushions instead of wheels. ABS prevents the wheels from locking up, which means you can still brake to some extent. The same applies in the rain, where without ABS, the thin layer of water on the road can quickly cause the wheels to lock up.

I understand it when it's snowing, because that's due to the lack of a snow wedge that provides braking support, which is how cars are built without ABS. So, I drive every day without ABS, and I've often wished I had it, especially on wet roads in the fall, and now on slightly icy roads.

x world one wrote:

Why should ABS, specifically on ICE, extend the braking distance? That seems illogical to me. Then the braking distance would also increase in rain, etc.

1. Is it the case that it doesn't matter whether something is logical or not, initially?
2. It tends to be the same way when it's wet. I didn't take any measurements because I was afraid of damaging the tires.
I suspect that the cycle of locking and unlocking the wheels on smooth roads, solely due to the inertia of the wheels, takes too much time. Unlike a skilled driver who maintains a state just before locking up using feel, ABS instead switches between these two states.
"Where "manual" ABS is at a disadvantage is when there are significant differences in road conditions from the right to the left, or from the front to the back of the vehicle." By the way, the ABS in the Vectra A also worked that way, it only controlled the rear wheels with "select low."

Hi,

To further expand on this thread, I would also like to share my experiences and questions and add them to the discussion.
I drove a Golf II for about 2.5 years and 40,000 km, and it didn't have any electronic assistance systems. It was quite manageable as it was (in normal everyday driving). The problems were, on the one hand, the fear of brake judder in critical situations, and on the other hand, that the right rear wheel would lock up first during heavy braking, causing the rear of the vehicle to slowly drift outwards.
Then, for a little over 6 years and approximately 140,000 km, I used a Golf III Variant with ABS. Issues like brake judder and a tendency for the rear to slide were no longer a problem, but overall, I was quite disappointed with the ABS. Everyone knows that moment (especially noticeable on snow or ice) when, during braking, the rolling friction transitions to sliding friction, and you feel like you're getting a little extra push. This loss of grip was almost worse with ABS than without it. The longer braking distances on ice or snow confirmed this suspicion. However, you were at least subtly prepared for this with the small paragraph from the owner's manual: "The braking distance with ABS does not always have to be shorter." (or something similar). However, a more misleading statement was the claim that ABS allows the vehicle to remain steerable during full braking. While this might have been true on a dry road surface (something I never had to test with my vehicle, and something I wouldn't voluntarily test), it was definitely not the case on a slippery road surface. The only thing to do was to release the brakes, wait until the car was pointing in the right direction again, and then brake again.
Since mid-year, I've been driving a Passat Variant with ABS and ESP. After driving it for 10,000 km, I haven't been able to gather much experience yet. I definitely feel that the ABS engages much faster (with a higher frequency). The ASR and ESP have left a somewhat ambiguous impression so far. I haven't had the opportunity or need to test them in truly extreme situations. For example, on Monday, while exiting a roundabout on a very slippery surface, despite turning the steering wheel, I continued straight ahead towards a sign without the ESP seeming to think it needed to intervene. Perhaps I was going too slowly (around 20 km/h). On the other hand, later I made a U-turn on a muddy parking lot at a similar speed, this time with the help of the ESP (Electronic Stability Program). Similarly, ASR behaves inconsistently – it seems to engage quickly on well-adhering surfaces, but only later on smooth surfaces (which would make sense if this behavior is also confirmed this winter).
However, concerned by all the discussion about ESP, the important question arises: how should one react correctly? In all the animations about ESP, I only remember things like: the driver wants to go there, the car wants to go there, so ESP brakes this or that wheel, etc. There was never any mention of how the system actually works (and especially of the remaining effectiveness) when it comes to counter-steering. However, some posts suggest that one should counter-steer decisively. What does the instructor say during safety training? Does anyone know of a report that discusses this in detail? Or does it only help to experiment and hope that the vehicle reacts "like it did last time"?

peace

A computer doesn't do what you want it to.
but only what he is told.
But who really says what they want ?

pax wrote:

...to make this thread even longer.

Everyone can/should share their experiences here. That's what the thread is for.

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But, concerned by all the discussion about ESP, the important question arises: how does one react correctly?

Just as you would do it without ESP. However, it's still the best way to prevent damage and ensure that things don't get that far.
The experiments I conducted were, in some cases, also "acts of violence." I don't want to deny that I may have overloaded the system with that.

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In all the animations about ESP, I only remember things like: the driver wants to go there, the car wants to go there, so ESP brakes this or that wheel, etc. There was never any mention of how the system actually works (and especially of the remaining effectiveness) when it comes to counter-steering. However, in some posts, it sounds like people are suggesting that you should actively counter-steer. What does the instructor say during the safety training?

Okay, my opinion is that you shouldn't blindly rely on the electronics and should definitely steer against the skid. The ESP might also interfere with the counter-steering process. However, since a normal driver usually doesn't correct enough, the ESP will intervene to assist. You should always be prepared for seemingly illogical reactions. Not everything can be done with electronics.

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Does anyone know of a report that thoroughly examines this?

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Or does it only help to experiment and hope that the vehicle reacts "like it did last time"? http://www.kfztech.de/kfztechnik/sicherheit/ESP.htm
That's something that should definitely be included in a security training session.

I also drove my first car with ABS in 1985 (the system was introduced by DC in the S-Class in 1979). So, it was a system that was still in its early stages of development at the time. The regulation was harsh, slow, and not very helpful.
The system was designed solely for vehicle steerability and not for optimizing braking performance/stopping distance. It could significantly increase the stopping distance, especially on dry roads. Modern systems are much better in this regard, thanks to the increased computing power now available in these systems. However, everyone should be aware that the stopping distance can still be longer in certain situations. You should also try that out beforehand (please don't do it on public roads).

I believe that the ESP systems will continue to improve. The computational power that ESP consumes is enormous, so there will definitely be further developments in that area.

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[...] but for me, it suggests that you might have been glad to have ABS! Without ABS, you won't be able to stop on an icy road, that's a fact! I'm also going to retrofit ABS to my 1996 Golf 3, because it's almost unbearable to drive the car without it.

Hi,
Save yourself the trouble/cost with ABS!
I believe ABS is dangerous in winter. I own, among other things, a T3 Doka Syncro with ABS, which I made switchable (it's quite simple, you just need to insert a switch into the power supply of the control unit's relay) because the vehicle simply won't stop on snow .
I once compared braking performance with and without ABS on snow and ice:
with ABS: "infinite" braking distance, steering is just as impossible as with wheels that are locking up, so it doesn't achieve anything.
Without ABS: Brakes normally, but steering is not possible.
I didn't measure the braking distances myself, but the 50% figure mentioned by others might be accurate.
ABS might sometimes be nice, but the ability to switch it off is essential. With a T3 Syncro, ABS can even be detrimental! When driving down steep slopes on loose surfaces (which is perfectly feasible with a T3 Syncro), you won't be able to stop with ABS engaged! You inevitably rush downhill, almost without braking . Stopping is impossible!
I experienced that once, and that's enough for the rest of my life.
Similarly, with ASR. The other day, a Touareg was stopped on an 80% incline and trying to go uphill. Unfortunately, it had ASR, and because the wheels were spinning slightly, the ASR system drastically reduced the engine power, making it impossible to move forward. Great, when you have 650 Nm of torque and don't want to use even a tiny bit of it to climb a hill.
A T3 Syncro (from 1989), which is very old compared to the Touareg, with "ridiculous" 185R14 tires and "even more ridiculous" 170 Nm of torque, easily climbs the hill, while the occupants of the Touareg were about to vomit.
The surface of the slope was made of grass pavers, so there was no loose ground.

I certainly feel completely comfortable in my vehicles, which are all designed without any electronic interference in the driving dynamics. At least they are complete, because...
most cars were delivered incompletely; it was forgotten to connect all the wheels to the engine/transmission .

Regards,
Jens.