R5 TDI: Why is it "clattering"?

HI,

I've noticed that *all* R5 PD TDI engines make a rattling noise.

For a low-profile T5 transporter, I could imagine that the noise is caused by simply missing soundproofing material.

"But even T5 Multivans with higher-end trims do this, and so do Touaregs, which certainly don't have a 'cheap' image, and where cost-saving measures are definitely not the primary concern."

Why don't the R5 and R4 models make those sounds, and the V10 model even less so?

"Then there's the T5, which costs 100,000 EUR (don't laugh, just look at the price list for the Multivan Business), and it's ticking worse than a Golf with 300,000 km and worn-out hydraulic lifters..."

m;

Hello,

The R5 models are a bit louder because they use timing gears instead of a timing belt.

Yes, that's probably the reason. I also attributed it to that, because the noise decreases as the temperature increases, at least that's what I observe from the engine compartment of a T5 (I think it's the 178 hp version, with a good equipment level, I believe it's a Highline).

Personally, I'm not against timing belts, as I don't find the replacement too bothersome... it's true that it's an unproductive Saturday, but it doesn't happen very often for me... However, I could live with the noise from the timing chain if it were offered in the Golf. I can already imagine the comments on Auto Bild.

matthiasTDI96 wrote:

Personally, I am not against timing belts, as I don't find the replacement process too bothersome... it's true that it's an unproductive Saturday, but it doesn't happen very often for me...l:

Hello!

I was initially also strictly against timing belts, which is why I ended up buying the VR 6 engine.
After 140,000 kilometers, the chain tensioner wore out.
It wasn't just an unproductive Saturday, but a completely ruined weekend. I was actually very relieved that I managed to get things back on track.
The engine, even with the two chains, always made quite a rattling noise.

Unfortunately, every mechanical power transmission system generates noise, some more, some less. This is simply a characteristic of such systems, and it's something you can't really fault a timing belt for.

The only thing I personally find really bad about the PD engine in the Golf, from a constructive and maintenance perspective, is the fact that the engine mount has to be removed. If that weren't there (and yes, the intercooler on the other side too... a dream!), the engine swap would be as quick as on a Kadett gasoline engine.

Well,

The G3 lacks an engine mount and intercooler, which affects the timing belt.
However, you can't just get a tire repair done quickly at a gas station.
But with the G4, it's really "interesting" how it's put together.

I can't say anything specific about the VR6 engine's reliability, as I only knew one person who owned one, and their timing chain broke shortly after 100,000 kilometers. VW's response was: "Bad luck." That's all they said.

m;

Yes... this happened to a Kadett in a highway rest area... I did it myself (it seems like fate when you have the new belt in the trunk and the old one breaks... with a freewheel, you can really maximize the maintenance interval).

"But honestly, if everything were freely accessible on a golf engine, you'd have to remove the timing belt cover, the crankshaft pulley... the locking pin... release the tensioner... and you're almost done. It's clear that this isn't the best way to spend your time. I personally avoid any water pump (WSP) that also requires removing the timing belt, as it makes the job much easier."

However, a direct-drive camshaft would still be a dream for me.

PS: Is it the timing chain tensioners that cause the R5 and V10 TDI engines to only tolerate the 50601 oil? Or do they also have other types of power transmission systems for the camshaft to the injectors?

dieselmartin wrote:

Well, I can't say anything specific about the VR6 engine's reliability, as I only knew one person who owned one, and their timing chain broke shortly after 100,000 kilometers. VW's response was: "Bad luck. That's all." m;

Hello!

What's a VW workshop supposed to say about that?
In the VR6 engine, the oil pump seems to be oversized, and the pressure relief valve often doesn't function properly.
As a result, the oil pressure often exceeds the maximum of 5.5 bar, reaching much higher levels. I've heard reports of pressures as high as 9 bar immediately after starting the engine.
Since the upper chain tensioner is hydraulically operated, the problem is actually quite clear to me.
At least the wrench wears out quickly, but I've never heard of a chain breaking.

Yes, the valve is hitting against a ledge, which prevents the excess pressure (sometimes exceeding 10 bar) from being released. There's an oil pump that was modified in that area.

The problem with the VR system was the old clamping mechanism. The maximum pressure (which is only applied for a short time) was being stored (!!), and the lining on the clamping rail was only riveted in place.

There's a new type of tensioner (likely inspired by the MB Vito) made entirely of plastic, and another type that is only pressure-assisted. This new tensioner doesn't accumulate pressure and therefore doesn't need to be bled.

If your chain is rattling (VR), you should stop riding immediately, otherwise it will eventually break.

In my opinion, it's not okay for new vehicles to already be making rattling noises.

Hi,

"Hmm, I haven't noticed any rattling from the engine yet, and I haven't taken one apart. My 1959 Eicher also has a camshaft driven by spur gears, and it doesn't rattle either (although it only has one intermediate gear, since the camshaft is located at the bottom)."

What's the drive system like? Is it just using spur gears, or does it have an anti-clatter mechanism?
The fact that the rattling can be eliminated, at least with small load changes, is well demonstrated by my (former) mopeds: the KX250 rattles without load, due to a simple helical gear between the crankshaft sprocket and the clutch basket. The Honda MBX80, on the other hand, doesn't rattle: the solution here was to place another thin gear with one less tooth next to the crankshaft sprocket, which [my assumption, I don't remember the exact details] was tensioned against the actual drive gear with a disc spring.
It worked great: the friction between the two wheels minimized the play between the tooth flanks.

Best regards, Rainer.

Hi.

I don't think the R5 is rattling because of the front wheels.
Because the V10 engine is incredibly quiet.

Especially since there is the possibility and the know-how to interlock the gears in a backlash-free manner using a two-piece design.

m;

Speculative mode: In a TDI helical gear design, a relatively long distance needs to be covered (from the crankshaft to the camshaft).

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.volkswagen.com.hr/touareg/tehnika/pics/technik_mo_c5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.volkswagen.com.hr/touareg/tehnika/motori.htm&h=220&w=220&sz=18&hl=de&start=4&tbnid=zeXpuBBpEZ8miM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dr5%2Btdi%2Bmotor%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3D

sry for the link

I'm counting the visible gears: The photo of the engine cross-section is further down, and I can already see 7 gears.
It's possible that the large number of gears is the source of the noise. To my ears, it's not a clattering sound, but rather a mechanical noise that is quite unusual in its nature.

I would also like to ask again about the oil specification for the R5 and V10 engines, specifically 506.01 and not, for example, 507.00. Does anyone have any information on this? Thanks, haithamina.

I can imagine that the thinner 506.01 oil is specified because, in the Touareg, these engines otherwise barely meet the Euro IV emissions standard. Wasn't there also a special permit to use Euro III oil as Euro IV?

@ Christians,
Hmm, that could be.

@ all: Ich habe nun auch gelesen, dass alle Motoren, die das 506.01 vertragen kleinere Spaltmaße haben, als die, welche z.B. das 505.01- oder 507.00-Öl brauchen. Ob das stimmt? WIs that yours?

The 506.01 oil has a reduced HTHS value (<= 3 mPas). In a powerful V10 engine, this could potentially lead to very high temperatures and problems (wear). Similarly, in other R4 or R5 engines, it could cause issues during tuning and/or full load operation.
Are there any indications of increased wear or similar issues in engines operated with 506.01 oil?

Here's something to read:
http://www.motor-talk.de/showthread.php?s=&forumid=62&threadid=230315&perpage=15&pagenumber=1