Experiences with chip tuning

Hello fellow diesel enthusiasts!

First, regarding the legal aspects: I am writing here about my personal experiences, which are not universally applicable. Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions from this.

On March 13, 2003, I had an appointment with one of the most well-known tuning shops in Germany.
I had arranged this appointment by phone about two weeks prior. Until now, almost everything I've read about this tuner has been positive. That's why I was tempted to try it out, but...
to be proven wrong.

My vehicle is a 1997 Volkswagen Golf 3 with approximately 140,000 kilometers (87,000 miles) on the odometer, and its engine code is AFN.

The phone call.

My request was to have the software adjusted for the larger nozzles of my T4 Caravelle with a 110kW engine. After internal consultation, I was assured that this would not be a problem, but my vehicle might need to be put on a test bench to test individual functions and versions of the tuning software.

Since I was only interested in having one test performed on a dynamometer, we quickly came to an agreement. They quoted me a price of approximately 950 euros.
It also included a "beta mode." (Brief explanation: The chips have twice as much memory as the standard ones. The production software is loaded into the lower address space, while the modified software goes into the upper space. In the middle, a control wire is soldered; it conducts electricity once and not at all on other occasions. A simple switch from Conrad would therefore more than meet the requirements!)The mechanic mentioned that I could waive the warranty and the parts inspection report, which would reduce the price by approximately €270. I agreed to this and confirmed the appointment.

March 13, 2003, 9:00 AM

Before I begin: A friend accompanied me, and he can confirm the following text.

Wir waren pünktlich vor Ort. Am Empfang wusste man nichts von meinen größeren Düsen und der Herr, mit welchem ich am Telefon geredet hatte, war auch nicht da. Man schickte mich in die Werkstatt, wo man auch nichts von den Düsen wusste. Die Mitarbeiter des Tuners behaupteten zudem fest, dass diese Düsen keinen Vorteil bringen würden und dass Sie mein Auto auf 140PS "chippen" werden. ErAfter a lengthy discussion, they were willing to accommodate my requests.

Specialized expertise?

"During the removal of the control unit, the technician caused the leaves that were around the cabin air filter to fall into the blower motor. I had to disassemble and verschandeln everything at home after having leaves constantly flying out during my drive back."

"The technician disconnected the pressure hose from the pressure sensor in the control unit and said that the turbocharger was completely fine. He explained to me that this is because there's no oil leaking from the hose. (My crankcase ventilation system has been open for some time and isn't connected to the intake manifold.)"

"The entire team ridiculed me for installing larger injectors, claiming they would increase power. They rolled their eyes or laughed. On the dyno, the engine with the stock software and the larger injectors produced 20 horsepower and 35 Nm more torque. The tuner's explanation was, 'Your engine is really running well!'"

4.) I was told that the mixture is made very rich ("overly fuel-rich") at the top end to cool the valves. The pistons are not in any danger.

5.) I should disconnect the EGR valve, as it causes soot buildup.

6.) When driving onto the inspection platform, no consideration was given. After the standard suspension wore out, my car received a yellow Koni suspension system. This lowers the body by 30mm, which isn't much. The technician drove onto the platform with considerable speed. I could clearly see and hear which parts were hitting and scraping. While it might have happened even at a slightly lower speed, it reflected a certain lack of care.
When I asked if it might be better to remove the front spoiler lip, the technician responded with the question: "Should I take that off?" The car was lying on its front, with the spoiler touching the ground. The two parts can be removed with just two movements. It doesn't even take a minute.

Customer policy

Over the phone, I was promised a dyno tuning session. For €950, it probably wasn't too much to ask. However, once I arrived and the base plates were installed, they said that they don't do that kind of thing because they know the engine inside and out and it's not necessary. They claimed that the maximum performance had already been achieved. A tuning session would cost €200 per hour.

An der Stelle wurde es mir zu bunt und ich wollte jemand von deren Geschäftsführung sprechen. Man erklärte mir, dass die Absprache am Telefon nur eine Farce ist, da der Herr nur ein Azubi war, welcher nicht viel Ahnung hat. Das wurde mir so gesagt. Man schimpfte kurz mit demjenigen als er eintraf und damit war das Sache erledigt. Um mich zu besänftigen, bot man mir an, mein Auto ein paar mal für 77Euro auf dem Prüfstand abzufahren und die Software dabei ein wenig meinem Motor anzupassen. Ich willigte aus zwei Gründen ein. Zum Ersten, um mein Ziel zu erreichen und zweitens, weil ich Bedenken hatte, dass dieser Tuner im Nachhinein noch etwas an der Software ändert, was einen vorzeitigen Motorentod verursachen könnte. DiThere was a risk because I had already been on the...I had given up on the warranty, and the employees didn't seem trustworthy to me.

Finally, there was one last point of contention, which I thought we had already resolved over the phone. I wanted the tuning to be switchable. Incidentally, this was only possible at a very high extra cost. Now I had to justify why I wanted such a feature. I didn't feel like I was being advised; instead, I felt pressured.

The customer is king, or is he not?

Overall, I wasn't treated like a customer, but rather like a burden that just happened to bring in money. I mostly refrained from asking questions or making requests, but the reactions of the staff still gave the impression that they would have preferred if I simply left the car there, went for a walk for a few hours, and then came back to pay.

Man legte regelmäßig eine Zigarettenpause ein, bei der man draußen vor der Tür stand und redete. Den Schalter verbaute man nicht mit dem Argument, man könne das nicht so sauber machen, dass es mir recht wäre. Er würde irgendwo ein Loch bohren und den Schalter einschrauben. Ich solle das lieber zu Hause selbst machen. Jede Frage war denen sichtlich zu viel, wobei ich bei dem Programmierer eine Ausnahme machen muss. GEventually, we were able to have a somewhat decent conversation with him.

The technician told me that this job literally "really annoys" him and he only does it for the money. He used to work on his own car, but nowadays he's not interested in things like that at all.

The highlight

Normally, considering the points mentioned earlier, it would almost be too much for me to even write such a text. But I believe the following requires it of me.

The two people I overheard were talking about an Opel Omega that they had modified the day before. One of them mentioned that after a customer complaint, the company had reinstalled the same software, but sold it to the customer as a new, revised version.

If anyone has had similar experiences, I would be happy to read about them.

Greetings.
Thomas.

I think my pig is whistling .

That's quite something! You could almost think that you had your car tuned up at the bakery down the street...
What did you ultimately have to pay for the fun?
Was I'm wondering is, was that the original AFN engine in this car? It surprises me that you still have 4-hole wheels...

By the way: A passage in your story repeats itself once...

Hi Doc,

Yes, my Air Fryer Nacho recipe has always been made in this oven. The one with the four holes is perfectly normal.

It cost me €802.22 for the fun, without a warranty and without an ABE (General Operating Permit).

The repetition is happening because this was a Word document, and an error occurred during the copy process.

@joergs

No. They made it so fat that it smokes like an old steam locomotive.
Fortunately, the fun mode can be switched off, so I can still drive with the standard software. However, I haven't achieved the tuning I wanted yet. So, I adjusted the injection time to match the opening pressure and compensated for the larger hole diameter due to the poorer atomization.

The car is already quite fast with 153 horsepower and 370 Nm of torque, but that simply wasn't what I was looking for. I mean, what positive aspects does it even have? Suddenly, the high beam flash from a tailgater behind you seems so... insignificant.

Greetings.
Thomas.

hello!

Well, that doesn't sound very positive!

I actually find it a shame that customers still have to experience things like this.
When you compare the price to performance, it's actually outrageous...

You've caught those typical tuners again who simply increase the values by a percentage without much thought.
Does anyone have a different opinion? Well, you can see for yourselves.

I hope there will be some positive news about chip tuners again.

Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

'cu' is a Spanish abbreviation for 'con usted,' which means 'with you.' It is often used in online communication and texting as a way to express affection or intimacy.

Here are some examples of how 'cu' can be used:

* 'Te amo, cu.' (I love you, with you.)
* 'Eres mi todo, cu.' (You are my everything, with you.)
* 'No puedo vivir sin ti, cu.' (I can't live without you, with you.)

It is important to note that the use of 'cu' may be considered informal or even inappropriate in some contexts. It is best to use it only when communicating with people who are close to you and who understand your intentions.

'But don't you have a money-back guarantee with that company? Demand your money back and go to another tuner...'

If they refuse, the money-back guarantee is certainly documented somewhere in writing. Therefore, it's legally enforceable, and you can invoke your legal insurance if they object (if you don't have one, they won't know ).

'That's probably closer to 280 Nm at 2100 RPM. Is the blue curve representing power, and the red one torque?'
But why is the peak torque occurring so late, and not at 1900 RPM? And why is there such a fluctuation? It first goes up, then down slightly, then remains at a lower level for a longer period, before going up again...

Thomas wrote:

My concern was to adjust the software settings for the larger nozzles of the T4 Caravelle with 110 kW.

Hi Thomas,

Could it be that you too have fallen victim to the misconception that "turbo swaps without chip tuning won't work?"
You should have already noticed the increased performance when using the larger nozzles – what specific result from software adjustments were you expecting?
Or were there any problems operating the car after the injectors were installed?
Incidentally, this shouldn't be taken as flirting , because I had encountered such views before.
Therefore, the technical article on nozzles has also been updated accordingly.

Quote:

They made it so fat that it smokes like an old locomotive. Fortunately, the fun features can be turned off, so I can also drive with the standard software. However, I don't have the tuning that I wanted. So, I adjusted the injection time to match the opening pressure and compensated for the larger hole diameter due to the poorer atomization.

Generally, the standard software also automatically adjusts the subsequent injection start time back to the normal target value, provided that the pump settings allow for the necessary adjustment range for the injection process.
Therefore, adjusting the opening pressure should ideally be done by setting the pump to a slightly earlier start time.
However, you don't have to spend a fortune at a chip tuner for that.
The poorer atomization cannot be compensated for by any electronic tuning anymore.

But to expect something like that from a tuner who (still) doesn't even understand how nozzle replacement tuning works, well, it's bound to backfire .
For him, it's more important to extract money from a customer, even if their actual main request is completely unachievable.
As I said, don't take it personally!

:evil:The car is already quite fast with 153 horsepower and 370 Nm of torque, but that simply wasn't what I was looking for.

I'm not entirely convinced about the 370 Nm figure. Going from 280 Nm (with the larger injectors without chip tuning) to 370 Nm would be almost a 25% increase, and at that point, the stock clutch would likely start slipping... not to mention the overall durability of other components like the head gasket, etc.

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I mean, what positive thing has that ever achieved? The high beam from a tailgater behind you suddenly seems so... meaningless.

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Because the bumper is getting smaller, or because the high beam indicator is barely visible due to the soot ?

Hey everyone,

da habt Ihr Euch aber mit dem Schreiben angestengt. J.

@kenny

Quote:

Don't you have a money-back guarantee with that company, or what? Demand your money back and go to another tuner... If they refuse, the money-back guarantee is certainly documented somewhere in writing. Therefore, it's legally enforceable, and you can invoke your legal protection insurance if they object (if you don't have one, they won't know

).

"No way, not really. That would mean removing the module from the control unit and undoing everything. I don't want to go to any tuners anymore. I can find other ways to waste my money."

Meanwhile, things don't look quite the same anymore. It's a shame that I don't have any pictures of this soot wall.

Quote:

@tim27 so, according to your performance chart, you have 131 horsepower and... ---388 Nm at 380 RPM?????

Could it be that the wrong gear was used?

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No. Those are errors from the test bench. For some reason, it's producing very strange readings below the idle speed. Don't ask me, I was just told that. But about the floor. I asked which floor they were going to. The answer was that it didn't matter. But it was the 4th floor. @Ulf

Could it be that you too have fallen victim to the misconception that "turbo swaps without chip tuning won't work"?

No. I knew it was possible. After all, she had already done it before, and I had spent far too much time dealing with the issue.

Quote:

You should have already noticed the increased performance

Quote:

that comes with using the larger nozzles. I experienced this and described it in my previous thread about injector swaps. The results were almost entirely positive. It was similar to a tuning box, but without the soot.

What specific outcome from the software vote were you expecting?

The expected result is difficult to define. If you want to hear a "horsepower figure" now, I don't have one. While I know that other Austrian companies are able to extract more than 160 horsepower from similar TDI engines using just injectors and software, I actually wanted to be surprised by the results myself.
I was expecting a dyno tuning session, which would essentially mean getting new software for my engine. Even over the phone, they told me that it could take a very long time, but my main concern was actually the durability.
Please, let's avoid any fundamental discussions regarding durability and tuning. I already understand how they relate to each other. Then there was also this small part of curiosity...

Quote:

Or were there any problems

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during the operation of the car after the nozzles were installed?

No, quite the opposite. These things have only brought advantages, except for that hole they've made in my wallet.

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This is not intended to be flirtatious, as I have encountered such opinions before.

Can I relate this to myself, or is it more general?

Quote:

In principle, the standard software also regulates the subsequent start of injection back to the normal target value, as long as the pump setting provides the necessary range for adjusting the injection volume. Therefore, adjusting the opening pressure should ideally be done by setting the pump to a slightly earlier start time. However, you don't have to spend a fortune at a chip tuner for that. The poorer atomization cannot be compensated for by any electronic tuning anymore.

And what about the fuel injection amount at idle?

Quote:

You can't really expect that kind of tuner, who doesn't even understand how jet swapping tuning works yet, to do a good job; it's bound to backfire. For him, it's more important to extract money from a customer, even if their actual main request is completely unachievable. As I said, don't take it personally!

Ja, toll! Hinterher ist man immer schlauer. J.

Woher hätte ich denn vorher wissen sollen, dass dieser Tuner nicht den blassesten Schimmer einer Ahnung von diesem Düsentausch oder sogar vom Diesel hat? Am Telefon waren die glaubwürdig und wirkten auf mich seriös. Immerhin existieren auch genug Berichte in der Presse bzw. Mundpropaganda, die diese Aussagen untermauern. Darum hatte ich auch nicht wirklich Grund, deren Aussagen in diesem Maß anzuzweifeln. If they say they know about it and that it's not a problem, what indication could have convinced me otherwise?

But I didn't want to evoke any sympathy here; I just wanted to share my experiences.
I don't want to deny that they, in my opinion, misled me, and that I fully fell for it... do I really need to write any more?

Solving the "problems" that arose from this is the easiest thing to do. But that's not even the "point" of this post!

Quote:

I don't quite believe those 370 Nm: 280 Nm (with the larger injectors without chip tuning) to 370 would be an increase of almost 25%, and at that point, the (standard) clutch would probably slip... not to mention the overall durability (head gasket, etc.).

"The standard clutch has been gone from cars for a long time. Currently, I'm using a complete clutch from a G60, which starts to slip around 2000 RPM. But you're right, 370 Nm doesn't really seem accurate. I wouldn't be surprised if... but those are just assumptions. Maybe I'll take my Golf to a Bosch service center and have them measure it there. The results shouldn't be much different."
I'm also curious to see what the pistons look like.

Is it because the bumper is getting smaller, or because the high beam indicator is barely visible due to the soot? }

More likely, it's the issue with the soot! }

Greetings.
Thomas.

Thomas wrote:

Quote: This is not intended to be flirtatious, as I have encountered such opinions before. Can I apply this to myself or is it more general?

Hi Thomas,

with "öfters", I meant "by various people" .

Quote:

Quote: The poorer atomization cannot be compensated for by any electronic tuning anymore. And what about the fuel injection amount at idle?

The idle speed is primarily controlled by the engine RPM, regardless of how much fuel is injected.
If the perceived amount becomes too low, jerking problems occur --> Nozzle technical articles.

Quote:

Woher hätte ich denn vorher wissen sollen, dass dieser Tuner nicht den blassesten Schimmer einer Ahnung von diesem Düsentausch oder sogar vom Diesel hat? Am Telefon waren die glaubwürdig und wirkten auf mich seriös. Immerhin existieren auch genug Berichte in der Presse bzw. Mundpropaganda, die diese Aussagen untermauern. Darum hatte ich auch nicht wirklich Grund, deren Aussagen in diesem Maß anzuzweifeln. If they say they know about it and that it's not a problem, what indication should have convinced me otherwise?

Good question, next question...
I didn't want to say something like "you should have foreseen that because..." – because I wouldn't have been able to provide any further arguments at that point.
Unless you had already been able to peek behind the scenes of the targeted tuner. But who can do that?


I don't want to deny that they, in my opinion, led me astray and that I fully went along with it... do I need to write any more?

No, that was overly explicit – and I can imagine that it hurt you to write that again.
Respect, not everyone could have done that.

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Hi Ulf,

Quote:

with, I meant "by various people".

Then I understand what you mean.

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The idle speed is primarily controlled by the engine RPM, "regardless" of how much fuel is injected at that time. If the perceived amount becomes too low, jerking problems may occur -> see specialized articles on nozzles.

If the amount is too low, these jerking problems occur, or the engine may even stall completely. But what if the amount is simply too high?

Quote:

Good question, next question... I didn't want to say something like "you should have foreseen that because..." – because I wouldn't have been able to provide any arguments for that. Unless you had a chance to peek behind the scenes of the tuner beforehand. But who can do that?

Exactly. Unfortunately. But thankfully, there are ways to protect yourself.

I know there are people who have had similar experiences. It would be good if all of this could be collected somewhere.

Greetings.
Thomas.

Thomas wrote:

Quote: The idle speed is primarily controlled by the engine RPM, "regardless" of how much fuel is injected at that time. If the perceived amount becomes too low, jerking problems may occur --> Nozzle technical articles. If the amount is too low, these jerking problems occur, or the engine may even stall completely. But what if the amount is simply too high?

Hi Thomas,

There probably still some issues with understanding the idle speed control.

For example, if the engine speed is too high, the MSW (Motor Speed Limiter) will adjust it until the engine runs at 900 rpm, and vice versa.
The motor computer converts the RWG voltage reported by the pump at 900 rpm into a calculated "apparent" fuel injection amount, which may not necessarily correspond to the actual value.

If the fuel pump is set too rich (or if large injectors with a low opening pressure are installed), even a slight deviation in the MSW (Engine Control Unit) for the idle fuel quantity at 9000 rpm can be enough – the engine computer believes it is injecting a correspondingly small amount of fuel.
"And that's precisely where we typically encounter jerky behavior under partial load conditions -> error database: DIY solutions for reducing jerkiness."

Which tuner are we talking about now? Or did I miss something?

I don't see a problem with posting the name here. Praising words are allowed, but apparently criticism – which seems justified in this case – is not?

Regards,
arne

Hi,

@Ulf

Yes, I agree with you. I understand what you mean.

You write:

Quote:

... (or possibly large nozzles with low opening pressure installed), ...

How should the lower opening pressure be understood? The AFN nozzles open at 190 bar, while the AXG/AHY nozzles only open at 220 bar. Doesn't that mean the opening pressure is higher in those cases?

Wenn die "berechnete" Einspritzmenge nicht mit der tatsächlichen Einspritzmenge übereinstimmt, trotzdem aber die ~900 U/Min konstant gehalten werden, wie sieht es in diesem Augenblick mit der Abgasqualität aus, wenn z.B. zuviel Diesel eingespritzt wird? Kann man dieses Problem nicht einschränken, wenn man die berechnete Einspitzmenge per Kennfeld absenkt, sodass das MSW noch weiter schließt und die tatsächliche Einspritzmenge auch sinkt? OdeDoes the speed also decrease when the resistance increases?

@Arne

You have a private message.

Greetings.
Thomas.

[/quote]

Hello,

@Arne

You have a private message.

What's with all the secrecy? If you don't tell us where it was, people can only feel sorry for you. It doesn't benefit anyone to keep it a secret!

Does the injection amount also decrease? Or does the engine speed also decrease then?
Ein Dieselmotor funktioniert nach dem Prinzip der Qualitätsreglung. Ich finde es eigentlich verwirrend, wenn hier in diesem Zusammenhang oft von fett und mager gesprochen wird, da diese Begriffe eigentlich beim Ottomotor verwendet werden. Einfach gesagt gilt beim Diesel: mehr/weniger Kraftstoff ergibt mehr/weniger Moment oder eben mehr/weniger Drehzahl. Die Luftmenge bleibt in Abhängigkeit verschiedener Größen (z.B. Drehzahl,Ladedruck,...) gleich (keine Drosselung). Der Öffnungsdruck ist egal sofern das Mengenstellwerk noch genug Spielraum hat. Die EDC simply controls the 900 RPM and that's it!

Greetings.

I agree. If you want to warn us, then tell us who we should be warned about...

Constructive criticism is not a bad thing.

Thomas wrote:

Yes, I agree with you. I understand what you mean.

Hi Thomas,

It seems there's still a catch when it comes to understanding.

Quote:

Wenn die "berechnete" Einspritzmenge nicht mit der tatsächlichen Einspritzmenge übereinstimmt, trotzdem aber die ~900 U/Min konstant gehalten werden, wie sieht es in diesem Augenblick mit der Abgasqualität aus, wenn z.B. zuviel Diesel eingespritzt wird? Kann man dieses Problem nicht einschränken, wenn man die berechnete Einspitzmenge per Kennfeld absenkt, sodass das MSW noch weiter schließt und die tatsächliche Einspritzmenge auch sinkt? OdeIf the resistance decreases, does the speed also decrease?

That's exactly what happens!
And if "too much" diesel is injected, the idle speed (initially) increases .
But then the priority of the speed setting kicks in again -> the amount [of something] is reduced until it reaches 900 rpm.
And the exhaust emissions are the same (with the same injection timing), as if the engine control unit is reporting the "normal" idle fuel quantity.

If the engine control unit (ECU) reports extremely low fuel injection amounts during idle, the idle will become erratic (making a "wrrum wrrum" sound).

By modifying the fuel map, one can at best eliminate jerking problems, but not change the actual fuel injection amount at idle (as long as the engine speed is 900 rpm and the start of injection is not adjusted).

Quote:

You write: Quote: ... (or possibly large nozzles with low opening pressure installed), ... How is the low opening pressure to be understood? The AFN nozzles open at 190 bar, while the AXG/AHY nozzles only open at 220 bar. Doesn't that mean the opening pressure is higher in those cases?

I meant larger nozzles with the same low opening pressure as the standard ones.
For example, replacing 1Z nozzles with 190 bar pressure with AFN nozzles also having 190 bar pressure.
"Sorry, I phrased that awkwardly. "