Experiences with the "microcharge" regulator

Dear mechanics,

Does anyone have any experience with the 'microcharge' charger controller?

This is a special charging regulator for three-phase generators, which regulates the charging voltage based on the battery temperature (and not, as is usually the case, the generator temperature ).
The item costs 99€ and seems to be very useful.
I got this tip from a specialist who used to develop chargers for telephone exchange batteries. Telecommunications companies require such a precisely regulated charging voltage (accurate to 0.5% and temperature-controlled) to meet the 20-year lifespan requirements (!!!).

In a car, however, a fully charged battery (especially in winter) is more important than a lifespan of 20 years.

oldewurtel wrote:

In a car, however, a fully charged battery (especially in winter) is more important than a lifespan of 20 years.

Okay, and that's also what a regular bra does.
During a cold start, the temperatures of the alternator (LiMa) and the battery are the same, meaning that the normal, built-in compensation (yes, it exists - unlike the "uncorrected" voltage advertised) is just as accurate as that of an external regulator, and the charging process is equally "optimized."

If the LiMa (alternator) gets warmer than the battery, it simply won't charge the battery as fully - but if that small amount of difference caused significant problems, there would be more corresponding lawsuits.

-> A nice idea, along with exaggerated advertising, to make money from a purely theoretical problem .

Bosch also offers charge regulators with 'sense' inputs that use an extra wire to measure the voltage at the battery. The connection terminal is labeled 'S' (e.g., 1 197 311 510).

I have no idea who is using it...


CU Gremlin.

oldewurtel wrote:

which regulates the charging voltage based on the battery temperature (and not, as is usually the case, the light engine temperature ).

I just forgot about that one.
The "reference temperature for the charging voltage" should, of course, be measured in the acid (ideally, individually in each cell ).

Such a superficially attached sensor, at best, measures the surface temperature of the plastic housing, which may only be indirectly related to the acid temperature ( plastic is more of a thermal insulator than a conductor) - and this is especially true when there are significantly different temperatures in the engine compartment compared to the battery.

So, the story isn't really thought through to the end at this point .

@ Ulf

Hello Ulf,

Thank you for your comments!
You have a typo. E. all the relevant weaknesses of the microcharge LiMA controller have been identified and possibly presented in a slightly exaggerated manner .

But honestly: Aren't the weaknesses you describe actually the biggest weaknesses of conventional charge controllers??

1.) The battery (or acid) temperature, despite the plastic housing, can be measured more accurately at the housing itself than at the back of the alternator .
A temperature difference of as much as 20°C to 30°C can quickly arise (between a warm engine, a battery in the water collection box, and low ambient temperatures), which can result in a charging voltage that is 0.6 volts too low .

2.) The battery voltage at the battery terminal (or, The clamping force) can be measured much more accurately than at the Lima output .
The voltage drop in the LiMa battery, caused by cable and contact resistances (approximately 0.3 volts at 50 A), is compensated for .

Apparently, it's perfectly normal (and no one complains about it) that the battery needs to be replaced every three to five years. According to ADAC, a defective or improperly charged starter battery is the most common cause of breakdowns during the cold season.

A factor that should not be underestimated with the microcharge charger is the fact that no more electronics are used in a location that is crucial for the vehicle's reliability; instead, they are intelligently and strategically integrated .

It's precisely the intelligent electronic control systems that really give our TDI models their edge .
Even several small steps can add up to a significant result. B. A battery could potentially power a car for its entire lifespan in the future.

I'm thinking about my first car (a Beetle, manufactured in 4/70, with Lemmerz steel sports rims ), which, after 8 years, had rusted through from the inside at the sills. Today, that would be a warranty case .

oldewurtel wrote:

1.) The battery (or acid) temperature, despite the plastic housing, can be measured more accurately on the housing itself than on the back of the alternator . Here, a temperature difference of quickly up to 20°C to 30°C can occur (warm engine - battery in the splash tray - at low outside temperatures), which results in a charging voltage that is 0.6 volts too low .

Do you mean that much?
At least, the battery acid also warms up due to the power loss during charging (I have no idea how much ), and if the alternator regulator is located in the intake cooling air stream of the alternator, it is at least (mostly) protected from the creeping heat coming from the engine.

Quote:

The voltage drop in the starter-alternator battery system, caused by cable and contact resistances (approximately 0.3 volts at 50 amps), is compensated for .

This could also be achieved by modifying a standard controller -> 1 relay is sufficient .
It is likely that the nominal voltages of many standard LIMAs are slightly too high to compensate for this loss .

Quote:

3.) It seems perfectly normal (and is not complained about) that a new battery needs to be replaced every three to five years. According to ADAC, a defective or improperly charged starter battery is the most common cause of breakdowns during the cold season.

The question is, why do starter batteries fail so "early"?
I once read that the failure of diesel batteries (compared to gasoline batteries) might also (or even mainly!?) be caused by the vibration of the active material within the plates.
This naturally requires capacity, which initially reduces the starting power.
Eventually, the accumulated debris at the bottom will bridge the gap between the positive and negative plates, causing a short circuit and rendering the battery useless.
Price question: To what extent could this be prevented or delayed by an "unconventional" charging voltage?

Quote:

A factor that should not be underestimated with the microcharge charger is the fact that, at a location crucial for the vehicle's reliability, no more electronics are used; it is only intelligently and strategically integrated.

Yes: 3 housings instead of one, with several meters of cable in between, which again represent new potential sources of defects -> very intelligent, as opposed to "Your engine will always start reliably" .

The idea is certainly correct in its approach. The question is, how big are the real problems that will be solved with it.

I also find it quite rude that the microcharge provider, between the lines, portrays the Megapulser idea as nonsense ("if it were actually useful, you could buy it from me...").

Hmm, I don't know, but when we bought our 35i 1Z, the original battery was still in it, and it was 8 years old.

Best regards, WarLord.

Hi,


A temperature difference of 20°K to 30°K can quickly accumulate.

So, what is it: Kelvin or Celsius? Why not just a simple 20°C to 30°C temperature difference? Okay: Then it wouldn't sound so scientific anymore.
The Kelvin and Celsius scales differ only in their zero points. Ultimately, the difference between 1000-1020 euros and 10-30 euros is the same!

The voltage drop in the starter motor battery, caused by cable and contact resistances (approximately 0.3 volts at 50 amps)...

According to ADAC, a defective or improperly charged starter battery is the most common cause of breakdowns during the cold season...

Exactly! But that's because 'Mutti' (mom) drives 2km through the city to the supermarket and back, using the rear window defroster, headlights, and heater fan set to 'hurricane' mode. Even with super-advanced battery technology, that will drain the battery! Perhaps we could even integrate a small nuclear power plant into the electronics, which would provide the necessary energy even when the engine is not running...

I'm not saying that electronics are complete nonsense. However, in practice, the lifespan of a car battery is often shortened by factors like short trips, lights being left on, jump-starting, etc., to such an extent that a temperature-controlled charging cutoff voltage cannot compensate for it. When used appropriately, such electronics can be beneficial for bikers who store their bikes in a garage with fluctuating temperatures during the winter.
I'm getting a parking heater installed soon, which is known to put a strain on the battery. To prevent it from failing prematurely, the lead-acid battery will be regularly recharged. It is perfectly sufficient for the battery to be charged with a UI characteristic and a charging voltage limit of 13.8V.


Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

'Micha'

Bee wrote:

Have you ever wondered if it's even possible to get 50A into a lead-acid battery for, say, 10 minutes, without exceeding the temperature-dependent charging voltage limit?

Of course not *gg* (assuming the battery is in good condition).

However, behind this aspect in many(?) vehicles, there is more than just the voltage drop caused by the charging current.

For example, in our cars, the thick cable from the alternator leads to the battery, and only from there does the electricity branch out further into the vehicle's electrical system.
Effect: For every active consumer between the LiMa (alternator) and the battery, the corresponding voltage is lost.
-> With a 50A load, the charging voltage will never exceed "0.3 V less than what the alternator provides," even with a fully charged battery.

However, that doesn't change my fundamental assessment of the practical usefulness of the µcharger:
A rather academic problem is being amplified by a factor of 100 through advertising in order to promote its concept.

Hello fellow enthusiasts,

@ Bee:
So, what now: Kelvin or °C? Why not just a 20°C-30°C temperature difference? Correct: Then it wouldn't sound so scientific anymore.
It is correct that, according to technical literature, temperaturedifferences are always specified in °K. Of course, 1°C is also equal to 1°K. Why is providing accurate information about physical values often interpreted as being a know-it-all ?

@ Ulf:
However, behind this aspect in many(?) cars, there is more than just the voltage drop caused by the charging current.

For example, in our cars, the thick cable from the alternator leads to the battery, and only from there does the electricity branch out further into the vehicle's electrical system.
Effect: For every active consumer, the corresponding voltage is lost between the LiMa (alternator) and the battery.
Okay! In my A4, the power lines are only 'branched off' at the battery. Of course, it's not just the charging current, but the total current that causes a voltage drop here . This voltage drop is compensated for by the microcharge charger and regulated, provided that the alternator can handle it.
Question: How can you tap into a 'standard' LiMa (alternator) regulator so that it also senses the voltage at the battery terminal? This would only require an additional wire. I don't want to simply disassemble my regulator .
By the way: What you said about the intake cooling air is, of course, correct! I hadn't thought of that .
And of course, you're not wrong to point out the additional effort involved. Additional connectors can quickly introduce another source of errors.

Furthermore, in my first post, I had asked about experiences with the microcharge charger .

And one more piece of information:
My battery in my A4 is still the original one. I think that good care (especially refilling the water in the fall) also contributes to it.

Best regards.
Cash registers.

oldewurtel wrote:

Question: How can one tap into a "normal" LiMa regulator so that it also senses the voltage at the battery terminal? This would only require an additional wire. I don't want to simply disassemble my regulator .

In the regulator circuits I'm familiar with (which may be outdated?), the regulator receives its power and also the information about the actual voltage from the exciter diode output of the alternator.
The contact is made, for example, via a metal tab.

-> The corresponding. Simply connect the regulator input to the positive battery terminal.
It only has the disadvantage that the controller is constantly powered. So, we'll install another isolating relay in the new circuit, which will be controlled via the X-contact (so that the alternator is switched off during starting).


But I just remembered something (to everyone).

Since my AFN Golf, my alternator (LiMa) has had 2 external thin cables going to the regulator: one for the charging control, and the other apparently for switching on the regulator (terminal 15).

Does anyone know if this terminal 15 input only provides a switching voltage, or does it also feed the actual voltage value into the controller?
If that's the case, one could potentially eliminate the need to connect the exciter diode input to the regulator's positive battery terminal.

Does anyone know if this terminal 15 input only provides a switching voltage, or does it also feed the actual voltage value into the controller?
If the latter, one could save the act of connecting the exciter diode input to the regulator to the battery positive terminal.


Could you please check the Bosch catalog for starters and alternators? The regulators are explained there.


btw: you are currently in the process of moving the church out of the village...


CU Gremlin.

Hello fellow DIY enthusiasts,

@ Bee:
So, what now: Kelvin or °C? Why not just a 20°C-30°C temperature difference? Correct: Then it wouldn't sound so scientific anymore.
It is correct that, according to technical literature, temperaturedifferences are always specified in °K. Of course, 1°C is also equal to 1°K. Why is a correct specification of physical values often interpreted as being pedantic:?: ? Pedantic??? It was never explicitly stated, but rather a hypothesis was put forward as to why the less common unit, Kelvin (*KSM ON* - Kelvin only with K, without the degree symbol), is used (especially by the general public/end consumers), and often that's not entirely wrong...

That 'super rule' for charging batteries is really a nice thing, but whether it actually achieves anything is a different matter. It has already been extensively discussed that the lifespan of a starter battery in a vehicle is significantly more affected by other factors than by slightly suboptimal charging. So, why would anyone spend money on that?

Hi everyone,

I also have to add my two cents.

The story about using a different voltage regulator on the alternator is quite old. HELLA sold an external battery charger for retrofitting in Europe in the 1990s, which they aptly named HPR = HellaPowerRegulator.
Interestingly, it was sold in all Central and Northern European countries, but not in Germany!
The key to HPR, however, isn't using temperature as a control parameter (which is also possible in HPR), but rather an IoU curve.
Conventional Lima regulators only have a fixed charging voltage, which means they use a simple voltage control system.
The influence of temperature is certainly present, but the type of charging curve has a much greater impact on battery lifespan and state of charge.
However, the simple on-off control of a standard Lima controller is definitely the worst of all possible control options! For that, the regulator is the cheapest to manufacture; it's up to the manufacturer if they have ulterior motives.
It's good that many drivers find the simple Lima rule perfectly adequate, as it saves car manufacturers a lot of production costs. So, let's get back to why HPR isn't sold in Germany... Nobody is buying it because Bosch has been doing everything right for 100 years, right?
Regards,
Jens.

Jens 16syncro wrote:

..... HELLA sold an external battery charger as a retrofit option in Europe during the 1990s, which they aptly named the HPR = HellaPowerRegulator. ....

The HPR system is still available for purchase. Hella is no longer involved.
The company AGTAR is making a killing in the camping sector!

[Dead link] Explanation of how it works... Unfortunately, it's very sparse, intentionally so, to prevent anyone from realizing how primitive the whole thing is. Despite everything, they are demanding 1650 euros!

Bertil wrote:

The HPR system is still available for purchase. Hella is no longer involved. AGTAR has a real knack for success in the camping sector! ... Unfortunately, it's intentionally very sparse, so that no one notices how rudimentary the whole thing is. Despite everything, they are demanding 1650 euros!

Hi Bertil,

No, the story is actually much funnier...
Agtar is selling Hella's HPR product! I know this for sure, because I had a conversation with the CEO of Agtar at a trade fair many years ago, and he openly admitted that they were selling Hella's HPR and had also acquired the name. Supposedly, even with the blessing of Hella (which I can't verify), because Hella doesn't distribute the HPR in Germany.
I subsequently purchased the HPR directly from Hella. It was possible by simply calling the responsible sales manager directly. Otherwise, the HPR, as a Hella component, can also be officially purchased in the Netherlands, Belgium, or France. I'm not sure if it exists in Austria.
Agtar also sells a few related products alongside the HPR, but the core technology comes from Hella. It's not really bad, considering it's mass-produced .
I had the HPR installed in the T3, but it didn't fit after the TDI conversion because the carbon brush holder is constructed completely differently on the TDI alternator compared to the old T3 alternator. It would probably be possible to resolder it, but I haven't actually done it yet .
The HPR works very well; the charging capacity into the battery is noticeably faster and better. This is especially useful when you need to fully charge auxiliary batteries in a campervan. The auxiliary battery lasts significantly longer compared to using standard chargers, because, unlike a typical starter battery, it is discharged much more deeply. In everyday car use, without any extra features like a heated seat or parking heater, you generally don't need it.

Regards,
Jens.