R5TDI in Touareg - rattling and clattering when cold

Hello dear forum community,

Now I'm going to post another contribution that I briefly mentioned in my other post (/viewtopic.php?t=22795).
Unfortunately, today, while working on a lift with the master mechanic at a small car repair shop, I discovered that it was likely not a motor bearing, and that something much worse might be the problem.

Here's the complete error description:

About 2 weeks ago, it started. You could always hear this dull thumping or rumbling when starting the engine.
This is also very clearly audible and noticeable when the engine 'stutters' briefly at shutdown.
Soon, from the outside, it will sound as if you are hitting the undercarriage protection with a rubber hammer when starting or shutting down.
Interestingly, this seems to stop happening after a few kilometers, or when the water temperature reaches around 60-70 degrees. It's only when the engine is completely cold again that it starts working properly.

Therefore, I also thought that there might be a problem with the engine bearings.

Okay, so we removed the entire undercarriage protection this afternoon and complied with the instructions.
The problem was that the engine had already reached a certain temperature, which meant that the humming sound was not as pronounced.

Then we both had the same suspicion, that it might be coming from the ZMS, because I also feel a vibration in the clutch pedal when I press it about 3/4 down, without shifting gears, in sync with the sound. Here, I could even amplify the humming sound when stopping, if I let the clutch pedal press about 3/4 of the way down when stopping.

- In particular, the sensitivity to noise and vibrations throughout the vehicle is significantly greater when the vehicle is cold, compared to before.

You could clearly hear the humming coming from the area of the gearbox, more towards the rear, so not from the area of the DMF. The gearbox and engine themselves are not really wobbling, but the noise is present – so it's not a motor bearing.

When I then consulted another acquaintance who works at a tuning company (3 letters near Ingolstadt), where I also had my chip tuning, he suggested that it could also be the engine itself, since it stops working when the engine is warm - perhaps. Camshaft bearings or similar.
I now have an appointment there for next Monday. The car will then remain there overnight, and on Tuesday morning, the experts will examine the situation.

Nevertheless, I am of course very concerned, as the costs certainly won't remain in the three-figure range.

What do you think about it?

Can the ZMS cause such a noise, or should I probably accept a motor failure?

Here are a few more data:

- 170,600 km
- Year of manufacture: 04/2004
- Chiptuning from 96000km to 204PS
- Regular oil changes are always performed
- The farm is closed.
- no significant performance losses (except for end speed, see other post)
- no oil or water usage
- no blue smoke, only when it's cold, when starting, but not strong

Okay, and now I'm finished for the time being and hope you can give me some positive advice...

*sigh*

Greetings and thank you

Marcus

Hello everyone,

Okay, I understand the problem - the problem is solved...

It was the ZMS (two-mass flywheel), which was causing the noise and the specific vibrations and impacts.
My father and I disassembled the gearbox (it's quite large and heavy) today on a lift, and then we replaced the clutch with a clutch kit.
The engine runs smoothly and quietly, making much less noise, and the banging and clattering is gone.

The ZMS was completely broken - it could be moved in any direction and it was making a very loud rattling noise.

Spare parts costs: approx. 750,- EUR
Working hours: 7 hours (at VW, the entire engine is removed - but this is absolutely not necessary - VW working hours: 16 hours)

Overall, I am very satisfied now, as I also noticed that one of the two cats was defective (crumbly). I've just cleared that out.
Let's see if I can get a used or new one.

Best regards
Marcus

Thank you for the feedback. However, depending on how long the vehicle is intended to be used, it might be worth considering a "less aggressive" tuning. Otherwise, it will probably be the end after just about 75,000 kilometers.

Hello Michael,

Do you think it has something to do with the chiptuning that the ZMS broke?

I had previously owned 2 vehicles with the V6TDI (150PS) engine, both of which had been modified to produce over 200PS.
The ZMS never had any issues there.
And there, I had chip tuning done with over 200,000 km on it.

Greetings

Marcus

Can, but not necessarily. ZMS also break down from time to time.
As long as the ZMS does not produce any audible vibrations under full load in the main shaft and at maximum torque, I would leave everything as it is.

Best regards, Rainer

Hello Rainer,

No, I don't even notice any vibration.
Thank you.
Now, the PD elements will soon be ready.
Do you think they should all be completely replaced?
or should I get it overhauled first?

What does that cost with me for 5 PD elements?

The deviations are only somewhat noticeable when the engine is cold:

Cylinder:

1 - 0.12mg/h
2 - 0.78mg/h
3 - -0.44mg/h
4 - -0.31mg/h
5 - -0.36mg/h

That means everything can happen quite quickly, so that within a few minutes, the level is almost at 0.00mg/h.

What do you mean?

Greetings and thank you

Marcus

snowman24 wrote:

What do you think?

Great, please keep the PD elements as they are. The values would still be perfectly fine, even in a warm state. There is absolutely no need for action.

Hello,

Okay.

Thank you all...

Best regards and have a nice evening.

Marcus

Hi, I agree with Michael, we should leave everything as is. Values ok.

Hello
I'm having a similar problem with my aircraft-touring vehicle (2.0 TDI 4V, 13000 km, former VW test vehicle, driven in extremely short distances and largely under low load). It's now making a really annoying rattling noise, even at higher speeds, and doesn't run smoothly. All 4 glow plugs were faulty, but that's definitely not the problem. I found a heavily caked diesel filter, which suggests that engine oil has been entering the fuel system through the play in the PD plungers. I'm currently considering whether removing and cleaning the PD elements might help. Perhaps the injectors are also clogged/burnt. I don't want to believe that it's due to a mechanical fault at this point.
It seems to me that a mechanical issue is unlikely for you either - otherwise, it wouldn't get better with increasing engine temperature.

I have identified the cause of the burning issue with the PD-s:
- The 4V batteries are more prone to this issue because, due to miniaturization, the game cannot be made small enough, but it also occurs with 2V batteries. Siemens-VDO are significantly more vulnerable than Bosch.
- The fouling is strongly related to the presence of the element zinc. Zinc is present in oil additives (zinc dithiophosphate). Perhaps the tendency to carbon buildup can be reduced by using a different engine oil.

Can anyone tell me if I really need all the specialized tools listed in the repair manual for the assembly/disassembly of PD elements, or can I do it with just basic tools?

Flight Diesel

Hello,

So, the humming has completely disappeared after replacing the ZMS.
I just noticed that the engine is still making a bit of a droning noise.
as early as.
You just hear him louder 'dizzling'.

Specifically at certain speeds, it's making more noise than it used to.
I can also {FEEL} the hum when it's cold, in all the pedals and on the steering wheel.
- Not strong, but more than before.
I will be replacing the two motor mounts in the near future.
I will also check the exhaust manifold to see if it has already cracked.

Greetings
Marcus

Hello everyone,

Now it's yesterday:

Now, my Touareg is also 'dead' on its way to Coburg.
We wanted to get a car for my girlfriend, whose Lupo 1.0 had also suffered an engine failure (frozen) about 2 months ago, and we ended up getting an Audi A2 – with rental cars in between.

At 180 km/h with cruise control, the speed dropped to 170 km/h on a slight incline. Then I noticed a jerk in the steering wheel, and at the same time, the headlights of the car behind me were flashing.
The R5TDI has completely blown out all its oil, both into the exhaust and the oil level indicator.

According to the towing service - Hole in the piston -

Could there be anything else that could be responsible?
Head rhyme, perhaps?

The engine is still running, but it's shaking and sputtering violently, and it's emitting a lot of blue smoke from the exhaust.

What do you think about it?

Can I assume that the PD element was/is responsible for the damage?
I had already written in my previous post that it was louder than before, but the measurement blocks of the PD's haven't changed?!?

Greetings
Marcus

Hello,

Quote:

The engine is still running, but it's shaking and sputtering violently

That probably means we need to break it down first.

Best regards, Rainer

Good morning, Rainer,

The Touareg is now being handled by a towing company (which my roadside assistance policy covers).
dragged to my VW dealer
I don't want to make too many changes, and it would be best to sell it with a motor problem.
Nevertheless, I would be interested to know what's going on.
Can the VW dealer also check the engine while it's still intact - perhaps using an endoscope, for example, to see something through the openings of the spark plugs?

If it's truly irreparable, I want to sell it as is.
That was, to be honest, the last diesel engine I bought from the VAG group.

2001-2003: Audi A6 Avant 2.5 TDI 150PS V6 - 3x Turbos, 1x Nockenwelle und viele Kleinigkeiten außenherum
2003-2007: VW Passat 3B V6TDI 4Motion - 1x Turbocharger, 1x Camshafts, and also a bunch of other small parts.
2007-2010: VW Touareg 2.5TDI R5 - 1x exhaust manifold, intake pipe completely blocked, catalytic converter defective, timing belt and now 'engine damage'

I'm probably going to get a slightly older gasoline engine, at least a 6-cylinder, and have it converted to run on gas.
I haven't had any luck with the shovels.
And the diesels, which were really reliable, I'm talking about the old 5-cylinder 140hp engine in the Audi 100/A6 C4, you can't drive them anymore today due to the environmental zones.

I am currently torn between importing a Touareg V8 from the USA or an Audi A6 C5 with a V8. Audi S6 C5.

What do you mean?

Greetings
Marcus

P.S. In dem Touareg-Forum lese ich derzeit immer häufiger über schwerwiegende Motorschäden beim R5TDI aufgrund von 'Plasma-Schicht-Abplatzungen' und PD-Problemen usw. Can it really be?

Quote:

Right now, I'm torn between importing a Touareg V8 from the USA or an Audi A6 C5 with the V8, or an Audi S6 C5. What do you mean?

I mean, to try and anticipate as much as possible beforehand whether and which engine/gearbox combinations might be problematic.

If you've had bad luck with a 2.5 TDI V6, for example, it's not a good idea to immediately buy the same engine type again.

So, ich lese, lese, lese, um herauszufinden, welche kleinen Probleme es mit den potenziellen Motoren geben könnte und wie wartungsfreundlich sie sind. Wenn für irgendwelche kleinen Reparaturen der gesamte Motor aus einem Fahrzeug entfernt werden muss, wäre das für mich ein absoluter No-Go. Criterion.

With the 2.7/3.0 TDI V6 engines, there's very little to complain about, and there are also many newer 2.0 TDI engines from around 2007. Even with gasoline engines, there are some that are absolute lemons, and others that simply work well.

And, based on my experience, I would either buy a new car, or only from someone I absolutely trust. Everything else is a gamble, because especially with high-end vehicles with large engines, the tachometer rotation is particularly worthwhile.
Otherwise, you might just be wondering why damage suddenly appears, which would normally only occur after an extended period of maintenance, typically after 40,000 km, in accordance with the vehicle's mileage.

Also, you should also check the flash counter in the engine control unit and consider any updates from VAG. Unfortunately, the wagon whips are particularly problematic, as they are used by the "OBD-Stricher" around the corner with dubious files, which essentially torture the machine without any regard for its well-being.

Best regards, Rainer

Hello Rainer,

Thank you for your advice.

The story with the two V6TDI engines in a row is quite simple – at that point, I didn't really know that there were such problems with the engines.
I only became aware of it later and always hoped that it wouldn't happen to me.
But unfortunately, I also had to invest in the new parts.

But, well, dwelling on the past doesn't really help.

I need a vehicle that I can also use to tow my trailer with a maximum gross weight of 2.5 tons, and that I can also load properly without the vehicle struggling to climb hills.
I'd prefer a small 4-cylinder engine, but not because of the noise, so at least a V6 or then immediately V8.
I once had an Audi 80 2.6E with the V6 engine. It was really not bad, but it had a lot of mileage and also no trailer hitch.

The 2.7/3.0 TDI engines actually run quite well, but I'm now 'branded' when it comes to diesel engines.

Buying a new car is not an option for me because of my desired features and the desired towing capacity, as well as the potential for loss of value.
So, I'm buying another used car - but only from a dealer and with verifiable VAT, since I'll be using this car again in my company.

You should check the flash counter in the MSG.
How do I get there?
I have a VAG-COM.

Best regards

Marcus