Turbocharger Control Unit: Faulty, 18360, 18361

Hi,

"In a Phaeton, two unpleasant errors appear in the fault memory: 18360 and 18361 = Both turbocharger control units are detected as intermittently defective."

The main problem:
- The (Hella) STG units cannot be purchased individually.
- To replace both complete turbochargers, the engine must be removed .

Cost breakdown: Engine (STG) €250 each, turbocharger approximately €1,000 each. All parts and labor included, approximately €6,000 total.

The problem: Increasingly frequent emergency mode, currently about once a week. The occurrence of the error seems non-reproducible, and so far, no pattern has been identified. Otherwise, the engine runs perfectly normally.

Who has information about whether...
a) Are the STGs individually available for purchase?
b) Whether the STG (turbocharger control units) of new turbochargers can be mounted on the old ones, or whether they need to be calibrated?

Code:

VCDS Version: RKS 908.2 Datenstand: 20100327                  Adresse 11: Motor 2       Labeldatei: KEINE    Steuergerät-Teilenummer: 070 906 016 B    HW: 028 101 073 7   Bauteil und/oder Version: V10 5,0L EDCG000AGSª5726                  Codierung: 0000175             Betriebsnummer: WSC 01065 000 00000 2 Fehler gefunden: 18058 - Datenbus-Antrieb: fehlende Botschaft vom Kombiinstrument (--> Dieser Fehler kam nach löschen IIRC nicht wieder)             P1650 - 000 -  -              Umgebungsbedingungen:                     Drehzahl: 0 /min                     Drehmoment: 244.9 Nm                     Geschwindigkeit: 0.0 km/h                     Last: 0.0 %                     Spannung: 12.16 V                     Binärwert: 00001100                     Drehmoment: 292.3 Nm                     Drehmoment: 0.0 Nm 18361 - Steuergerät 2 für Turbolader: defekt             P1953 - 000 -  -  - Sporadisch              Umgebungsbedingungen:                     Drehzahl: 2814 /min                     Drehmoment: 537.2 Nm                     Geschwindigkeit: 105.9 km/h                     Last: 51.8 %                     Binärwert: 00000000                     Binärwert: 00100000                     Druck: 1805.4 mbar                     Druck: 2590.8 mbar Mittwoch,04,August,2010,22:25:19:49705 VCDS Version: RKS 908.2 Datenstand: 20100327 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------                  Adresse 01: Motor       Labeldatei:    Steuergerät-Teilenummer:   Bauteil und/oder Version:                  Codierung:             Betriebsnummer:    1 Fehler gefunden: 18360 - Steuergerät 1 für Turbolader: defekt             P1952 - 000 -  -  - Sporadisch              Umgebungsbedingungen:                     Drehzahl: 3024 /min                     Drehmoment: 442.4 Nm                     Geschwindigkeit: 50.0 km/h                     Last: 45.9 %                     Binärwert: 00000000                     Binärwert: 00100000                     Druck: 1621.8 mbar                     Druck: 2325.6 mbar Readiness: Nicht Verfügbar

Approximately 2000 euros for a set of turbos, from which we would only use the electronic control unit (ECU), is what someone might be willing to spend on a car that's only five years old. However, Schlüter mentioned that the ECUs would be adapted to the turbos ("volume flow calibration").

Error log:
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Thank you and best regards.
Guste.

Judging by the part number of the engine control unit, is this the correct engine for an AJS motorcycle?

I find it extremely unlikely that both turbo controllers will leave.
The control units only have +, ground, and CAN connections; that's all. They are both connected to the same power supply (+ and ground), which is working fine because other components, such as the throttle valve actuator, are also connected to it. Therefore, if there were a fault here, the control unit would still be able to report the valve status and any interruptions, etc.

I think you're having a CAN communication problem.

On the transmission, there is a connection point 2 with a black compact connector T10, where ONLY the drive-related CAN signals from the automatic transmission and the actuators are transmitted to the engine control units. This means that the CAN lines of the 3 CAN participants (transmission, actuator 1, and actuator 2) are first bundled together in the wiring harness and then connect as 1x CAN-high and 1x CAN-low to this connector (T10/4 - high; T10/6 - low).

I would strongly recommend checking if the connector is in good condition! Please measure the voltage from there to the compact connectors on each respective charger. Also, check if you can access the automatic transmission via CAN diagnostics, as the error with the instrument cluster might be related to that.

Make sure that when you access the transmission control unit, the diagnostic mode is actually "CAN" and not K-Line, as it might also support that.

And even better, check the extended MWB (Multiplex Bus) data in the CAN gateway to see what it says about the transmission control unit's status: "Automatic transmission = 1" means the connection is OK, while "0" indicates a broken or non-existent connection.

Hi Deus,

Thank you for your feedback.

Deus Violentia wrote:

Judging by the part number of the engine control unit, is this the correct AJS engine?

Yes, it is an AJS.

Deus Violentia wrote:

I personally find it very, very unlikely that BOTH turbo controllers will drop out!

I would generally agree with you, BUT: The VW dealer where the car was purchased two years ago, and with whom you can generally get along, said that of the V10 TDI models they sold, the turbochargers have already been replaced in 6 of them. The problems were fixed with those replacements. (He also said that the engine control units are at least mechanically replaceable individually, but that has never been done, because - unlike here - it was covered by warranty anyway.)

Deus Violentia wrote:

So, I think you have a CAN communication problem.

According to error messages circulating online (though I haven't seen them directly), there's supposedly a message that says something like "No CAN communication with Turbo 1/2." However, that message isn't present here. It's possible that this message doesn't appear with this specific MSG/turbo part number combination, or that it only appears under different conditions.

Deus Violentia wrote:

On the transmission, there is a coupling point 2 with a black compact connector T10, where ONLY the drive-side CAN bus from the automatic transmission and the load sensors pass through to the engine control units.

Let me guess: Is it located above the gearbox again, and only accessible by removing the engine and gearbox?

Deus Violentia wrote:

Specifically, the CAN lines of the 3 CAN participants (transmission, actuator 1, and actuator 2) are first bundled together within the wiring harness and then connect to this connector (T10/4 - high; T10/6 - low) as 1x CAN-high and 1x CAN-low. I would strongly advise checking whether the plug is in good condition!

Yes, I will definitely do that. I will also check the wiring to/from the turbocharger, if accessible. Additionally, I will take a look at the transmission control unit to see if there are any relevant clues to be found.

Thank you again for your input.

Greetings.
Guste.

I think the whole thing about changing the loaders is a farce. A mechanical weakness that I'm aware of (and this might surprise you) is the linkage system for the loaders on the crates. Also, check (if you have the opportunity) whether the coupling/pivot points are okay, so that the material doesn't just get stuck. As unlikely as it is that two loaders would fail, regardless of what VW says.

A Russian proverb says: "There are no two coincidences at the same time."

VW is quite clear that if older chargers are used and these messages appear.
Are the chargers to be completely replaced, or only replaced in pairs?

The reports that can be generated and for which checks/verifications can be performed are:
1. 18360 P1952 Control unit 1 for turbocharger, defective.
2. 18361 P1953 Control unit 2 for turbocharger, defective.
3. 19791 P3335 Turbocharger control unit, 1 missing message.
4. 19792 P3336 Turbocharger control unit, 2 - Missing message.

They can occur individually or all together.

VW describes this as a 'constructive modification of the internal and external charging control system, as well as a change in materials for the turbocharger.'

'If the exhaust turbocharger in the vehicle in question has the following number:...'
'If the turbocharger is faulty, both exhaust turbochargers must be replaced.'

Affected: 07Z 145 702 K, M, P, and R, as well as 701 P and T.

The following parts need to be replaced: 07Z 145 873, 874 G, and 873/874 H.

But maybe you should start by simply updating the motor software from SW 5726 to...
Bring it up to date to 070 906 016 CM @ 7001.
Depending on the relationship with the dealer, this is the cheapest option to try.
Quickly and easily completed.
Please also update the transmission (software version 1902), as this could lead to issues with the clutch engagement.

You should also carefully inspect the connectors and cables leading to the charger control units.
But it will probably end up being the same thing again, which is unfortunately the reality.
And then those petty arguments would disappear.

Whoever wants to drive a Phaeton must also be able to afford a Phaeton .
It's not exactly news that this isn't a cheap or particularly reliable car.

vagtuning wrote:

If you want to drive a Phaeton, you also have to be able to afford a Phaeton . It's not exactly news that it's not a cheap or particularly flawless car.

Small update:
It's getting warmer again, and the Phaeton is acting up more frequently. Nevertheless, we're still not willing to remove the V10 engine with its Quattro transmission to replace the expensive turbochargers, both for financial reasons and due to the amount of work involved.

They now want to install other (used) control units from an eBay seller (with a warranty). I have very mixed feelings about it. It would be great if it could be fixed for around €500 in less than half a day, but the fear of buying partially defective control units remains, of course. But I'm just carrying out the wishes of others.

Does anyone happen to have information about which engine control units were used on which turbochargers? The friendly car dealership provided the following number: Garrett 730314 6NW009228
However, I'm not sure whether this is the part number for an old or a new STG.

Best regards,
Guste.