Third gear shifting/synchronization (resolved) (Solution)

Hi there,
"During a drive of approximately 250 kilometers, the following problem developed in my Audi 80:"
- Initially, there was occasional rattling and difficulty shifting down to third gear, but now it occurs with almost all shifts. The transmission can now only be shifted smoothly with the use of rev-matching (blip).
- Occasionally, when the engine is off and the car is stationary, it's difficult to engage third gear; this blockage can usually be resolved by shifting into other gears.
- Initially, there were no problems shifting up, but now there's a scraping and rattling sound. Now, shifting up is only possible quietly with double clutching and some gas (most of the time).
Mein Verdacht ist ein Altersschaden am Synchronkörper für den 3./4. Gang und/oder am Synchronring für den 3. Gang.
With the request for comments.
Best regards.
Herbert.

PS: The transmission oil level is correct, and the oil meets the VW/Audi RLF specification.

Quote:

Mein Verdacht ist ein Altersschaden am Synchronkörper für den 3./4. Gang und/oder am Synchronring für den 3. Gang.

, it seems like that's the case. If it can't be shifted at all when idling, I also think of a stuck pilot bearing. I would definitely replace that if a gearbox repair or replacement is necessary.

Herbert wrote:

Shifting into 3rd gear while stationary (engine off) sometimes results in a blockage; the blockage can be resolved by shifting into other gears.

It shouldn't have anything to do with the synchronization settings.
Perhaps the gear linkage (cable system) can be fine-tuned a bit more.

Hi there,
The pilot bearing (presumably the needle bearing in the crankshaft) doesn't seem to be the culprit at first glance, otherwise all gears would have problems. The issue seems to be concentrated mainly in third gear. However, replacing this bearing won't be a problem once the transmission is out; I've done it before. I just need to get the right inner puller for the job.
The transmission is mounted longitudinally, and the shift lever is operated directly without any linkages or cables. Therefore, I also find it unlikely that there is a misalignment issue, as this would likely manifest itself in all gears.
Since continuing on is problematic, it won't be possible without a replacement or repair. The alternatives are:
- Original automatic transmission: extremely rare to find, and too expensive considering the age and mileage of the car.
- Used gearbox from a dismantling company: this only makes sense if the mileage is less than approximately 200,000 km. The installed gearbox has the GKB BAA type (used until August 1994). My vehicle documentation indicates that from September 1994 onwards, a CVC or CPC type was used, with different gear ratios in the first, second, and reverse gears. The housing part numbers are different, but the mounting parts are the same. I'm wondering if I can use a CVC or CPC type instead of the BAA without any modifications.- Repair: The mileage of the transmission raises concerns, as all wear parts would likely need to be replaced. According to the repair manual, I would not only need the parts themselves but also specialized tools. Of course, some things can be improvised, but even before opening the housing, there's a problem removing the driveshaft bearing. The manual shows a VAG 1582 puller for this purpose, which I don't have either.
I can manage to remove and install the gearbox myself.
Best regards.
Herbert.

Hello Herbert, if it's the Audi 80 transmission with 430,000 kilometers on it, I would just remove it and install a new one without disassembling anything. What's the point of reusing any parts if everything is taken apart?
Why don't you look for something used? It might be quicker to fix, and the car might still be in good enough condition.

Hello!

I would also check the switching mechanism there, just to be on the safe side.
Next, drain the oil to see if it contains a lot of metal particles.
"...or if pieces of wire rings, cage parts from bearings, or something like that, come out."
If that's not the case, then logically, remove the transmission and carefully inspect the clutch.

I can only say that here, with us, there are some Audi 80s being driven around with mileage up to 400,000 kilometers.
None of them had a broken transmission.
But repairing the transmission is a bad idea, and I wouldn't do it either.
First of all, it's a terribly makeshift repair, and then you also need some luck for it to work again and be leak-proof.
and thirdly, replacement parts are disproportionately expensive.
if you can even get everything you need anymore.
And you've already touched on the problem with specialized tools; it's okay to improvise sometimes if you happen to be missing a specific tool, like a puller.
But if you spend weeks just tinkering with something, it's probably not worth it.

The last gearbox I worked on was for an old Jaguar XJ6 with overdrive; it took me four weeks alone just to get all the spare parts.

Hi there,
"In the meantime, the mileage has increased by a good 500 km. There's clearly an issue with the synchronization of the 3rd gear, as only this gear requires a blip of throttle to engage (to bring the shaft up to the required speed)."
However, there's another problem as well, and I'm still trying to figure out the cause. While stationary, I've sometimes been unable to engage certain gears. The drive jerks (rarely) when driving with the clutch slipping, as if something is braking or hindering it (definitely not a jerky clutch). Both of these issues started appearing after the problem with the third gear. Maybe one of you can offer some insight.
The external switching mechanism is working correctly.
After the holidays, I'll take the transmission apart first, and then I'll see what else needs to be done. First, though, I need to get a Christmas tree and a set of beams (to create a ramp for removing the transmission).
An automatic transmission is out of the question; those are only available from classic parts suppliers (if at all) for around €2,500. I'm skeptical about buying a used one, as you're essentially buying a "pig in a poke." When searching online and here, it seems that the synchronization for the third gear is the weak point of the 012 transmission, and mine obviously lasted for a very long time.
The tool problem is probably not a real one.
Best regards.
Herbert.

Quote:

While the car was stationary, I sometimes couldn't engage certain gears. The drive system jerks (rarely) when driving with a slipping clutch, as if something is braking or hindering it (definitely not a jerky clutch).

I suspect that due to the faulty synchronization, the gear selector may not always fully return to its neutral position, which could prevent other gears from being engaged due to what's known as the "police switch."
The jerking could be caused by the synchronizing ring possibly getting stuck or by fragments constantly pressing against the third wheel.

If you want to repair the gearbox, you really shouldn't drive it anymore. If any fragments get between the teeth, it will cause corrosion (or damage).

Hello,

Fortunately, both of my transmissions are working perfectly despite the mileage listed below, and I also know some people who still drive the B4 and have not experienced any transmission problems even with over 300,000 kilometers.

Therefore, purchasing a recycling machine or, even better, buying it privately (and thus knowing the reason for its disposal) should involve minimal risk.

Of course, you always need a bit of luck when buying from a recycling center...

By the way: In my B4 from 1993, there's still the original transmission oil... I said that with 400,000 kilometers, if the car has a major defect, it will be scrapped, so I never changed it . Well, things turned out differently...

Best regards, happy holidays, and good luck solving your transmission problem!

Quote:

The jerking could be caused by the possibility that the synchronizing ring is jammed or that fragments are constantly pressing against the third wheel. If you want to repair the transmission, you really shouldn't drive it anymore. If any fragments get between the teeth, it will cause corrosion.

You're right. Something might be happening that could cause further damage.
Best regards.
Herbert.

edit:

Quote:

Audi 80 TDI 1Z, B4, year 1993, sedan, 670,000 km... the amazing car. Audi 80 TDI 1Z, B4, year 1995, Avant, 390000 km... the backup car

.
Congratulations!

Das Getriebe ist ausgebaut und teilweise zerlegt. Es sieht so aus, als hätte sich erst ein Synchronring zerlegt, dann wurden die Bruchstücke ins Differential gespült, und dort teilweise zermahlen. Das abgelassene Öl war voller Bronzeschimmer, Bruchstücke kamen auch mit. Mangels Werkzeug konnte ich das Lager der Antriebswelle noch nicht ziehen und diese ausbauen. Bei dem Zustand des Öls habe ich aber das Differential ausgebaut. Den Zahnrädern fehlt auf den ersten Blick nichts, aber alles ist voller Späne. Das Getriebegehäuse hat zum großem Tellerrad hin tiefe Spuren. Die The bearing cover on the engine's differential side is damaged.
Most likely, the contaminated oil has passed through all of the bearings.
I'm still looking for a suitable used gearbox, but it seems likely that I'll only have the option of repairing it (simply enough to last another two years).
Best regards.
Herbert.

Two questions:
- In one of the pictures, you can see the engine block (1Z) from the transmission side. What's behind that small cover on top? The leak appears to be oil, but I'm not sure if there are any traces of coolant, so I'd rather ask.
- In the second picture, you can see the gearbox with the drive shaft and the drive shaft bearing.
How do you remove the bearing if you don't have VW 1582 and VW 1582/2? There are various ball bearing pullers for standard bearings, such as 6205 (25x52) or 6305 (25x62). I need a puller for a bearing with dimensions 25x58x16 that will also keep the bearing cage intact.
Has anyone ever done this before?
Best regards.
Herbert.

Hello Herbert.

Regarding the engine:

Behind the large cover is the auxiliary shaft (which drives the oil pump/vacuum pump). Behind the small cover runs the main oil channel, extending from back to front through the engine block. All bearings and lubrication points are supplied by this channel.
I had the same problem when I was rebuilding my 1Z engine. Back then, I tapped a thread into the block and installed a sealing plug without a flange, using a threaded gasket.

Regarding the transmission:

You need something like this:
http://www.werkzeughandel-roeder.de/kfz-werkzeuge/pkw-lkw-abzieher/kugellager-abzieher/kugellager-abzieher-1291.html

Mpire.

Quote:

What is behind the small lid on top?

That should be an empty borehole.

Quote:

...who also leaves the storage cage intact. Has anyone ever done that before?

As far as I know, it's not possible to do that without damaging the storage area. The storage cage is just in the way.

"On my 3-speed gearbox (which is roughly the same design), I welded two screws onto it and removed it using two pullers – a bit of improvisation, really. The bearing itself is actually quite loose inside the gearbox."

"Thank you!"
"@Mpire: Have you ever used that puller for this? Gedore offers two sets of hooks specifically designed for roller bearing removal with a shaft diameter of 25 mm, each intended for bearings 6205 or 6305 (housing diameters of 52 mm or 62 mm). They might fit, but they don't necessarily have to. The bearing in question has an outer diameter of 58 mm."
As far as I understand the mechanism, the hooks on the outer ring are engaged and rest against the inner ring when they are rotated parallel to the axis. However, this requires that the hooks and the bearing are compatible with each other.
Best regards.
Herbert.

I didn't use that exact puller from Gedore. I used one with the same principle, and based on your description, you understand how it works .
The bearing – if it has a metal cage – remains intact, but plastic cages usually become brittle when used. They become fragile due to the influence of oil and heat.
There's also this principle that uses small, movable hooks, which then...
to cover a wider range of bearing sizes and are also replaceable.

https://www.begaspecialtools.com/demontage/mechanische-abzieher/betex-abziehwerkzeuge/betex-56-4-arm-kugellagerauszieher/4-armiger-kugellagerauszieher-betex-56-020/2-1-1-1-10551-4-0/

@Autoservice

Behind this cover is definitely the main oil channel; I've already removed the cover myself. When you shine a light on it, you can also clearly see the connections for the injector nozzles that supply oil to the pistons .

Mpire.