Check Clutch Before Tuning: Is it Safe?

Hello,

how to get in
http://www.ibiza-forum.de/thread.php?threadid=10311
Some drivers of modified electric vehicles (EVs) have experienced premature clutch failure after tuning, with the clutch slipping even though the torque is supposedly kept below 400 Nm.

"Apparently, some people are achieving well over 400 Nm without experiencing any clutch problems."

I would like to test how much additional Nm my clutch can handle before getting it (chip)tuned.

My initial thought was to use a 10c hammer with 180 ohms: first, a DZR test to estimate the increase in power and torque, and then accelerate with full load in 5th or 6th gear.
-> If it slips by 2000 rpm, it won't last as long.
-> If it doesn't slip, that's good, but I'm not sure how much reserve it has left.

Could the reserve fuel be estimated by accelerating in the highest gear with full throttle (or by driving up the steepest possible incline), then slowly engaging the clutch around 1900-2200 rpm until it just begins to slip, and then abruptly releasing it while observing the drop in engine speed?

My idea:
The more abruptly the engine speed drops, the more Nm of torque reserve the clutch still has. Conversely, if the engine speed drops gradually (or if the clutch starts to slip with only minimal pedal pressure), the clutch is already close to its slipping limit.

How informative do you consider this test to be?
Are there any additional criteria that one should consider?

"Are there other, more precise methods available without having to remove the clutch?"

hello ulf,

'If you go to a reputable tuning shop, they usually have a dynamometer. If the clutch is slipping (which I find hard to believe given the low mileage on your car...), they should be willing to work on it until the clutch stops slipping. I remember Arne mentioning that a friend of his had increased the power of a car originally producing 100 horsepower, with larger injectors and software modifications, to around 160 horsepower, but the clutch started slipping as a result. If the data could be transferred that easily... From my experience, the 180-ohm tuner hasn't caused any clutch slippage yet. Those few hundred extra horsepower run perfectly smoothly, the Fabia RS doesn't give any trouble, and even the 75 horsepower car with over 150,000 kilometers on the clock doesn't slip. So, it wouldn't be the indicator. I know that you can often get around 200 horsepower out of the original 130 horsepower engine, and even then, there hasn't been any clutch slippage. I wouldn't worry about it for now.'

Hi Ulf,

Unfortunately, I can confirm this... even the smallest performance increases cause my clutch to slip. With the standard power output, this almost never happens (but it does happen occasionally!).

If I run your test, the RPM drops very quickly. Therefore, it doesn't provide any meaningful results.

joergs wrote:

I know that you can get about 200 horsepower out of the original 130 horsepower engine.

And there wasn't any slipping clutch involved. I wouldn't worry about that for now.
Well, 200 horsepower at 4000 rpm is also "just" 351 Nm.

If the tuner limits the maximum torque, for example, to 370 Nm,

Bertil wrote:

then

it doesn't necessarily say much about the clutch having huge reserves.

How many tuned 130 models (with what maximum speed data) are you referring to?


:(Unfortunately, I can confirm this... even the smallest performance improvements cause my clutch to slip. With the standard power, this happens very rarely (but it does happen sometimes!).

Quote:

Well, the 100 horsepower models are generally known for their relatively frequent clutch problems - even without any tuning

.

:cry:If I run your test, the RPM drops very quickly. } Therefore, it provides absolutely no power.
Too bad... }

Hi Ulf,

Unfortunately, I can confirm this... even the smallest performance increases cause my clutch to slip. With the standard power output, this almost never happens (but it does happen sometimes!).


Apparently, there are problems with the AXR couplings. A friend of mine had his replaced today at around 60,000 km. It's a Golf Variant from May 2003. He had his car chipped at Wimmer, and that's the first thing Wimmer mentioned.

Regards,

Manuel.

Manuel Thomas wrote:

Apparently, there are problems with the AXR couplings.

I can confirm that as well... I know of three other cases where the clutch failed prematurely in an AXR.
Unfortunately, I haven't found an alternative to the original part yet.

Hello.
So, my clutch is starting to slip now too!
According to the DZR (German vehicle registration document), it has 164 horsepower and 386 Nm of torque.

I guess I'll have to go to the dealership and see what they have to say about it.

VW apparently only retrofitted the affected vehicles with the new chip under warranty in November.

At the Essen Motor Show, the company S***S showed me a clutch that is compatible with the ASZ engine.
offered, and which is supposed to deliver up to 460 Nm of torque.

Bertil wrote:

Unfortunately, I haven't found an alternative to the original part yet.

Hmm, ATD actually offers a 240 mm clutch for the 4Motion models, while the front-wheel-drive versions have a 228 mm clutch – the same one as the AXR!

According to that, the 4Motion clutch, including the flywheel(!), should at least fit on the engine side of your vehicle.
Unfortunately, I don't know if that would work from the transmission side.

ulf wrote:

.... Unfortunately, I don't know if that would work from the transmission side.

According to my information, it is not... unfortunately .

Klima96 wrote:

So, my clutch is starting to slip now too!!! I have, after the DZR, 164 horsepower and 386 Nm.

Oh dear... how old is the clutch (in terms of mileage)?

@ulf

'My AWX sometimes produces around 160 horsepower and approximately 370 Nm of torque (according to the dyno). I haven't noticed any clutch problems yet, despite the clutch being worn from heavy use.'

I have two cars with 130 horsepower engines that have been tuned, and they produce around 145 horsepower. No problems so far. I know of two cars with 200 horsepower. I know one of them personally, and the other one I've only heard about. I trust the one I know personally completely. If there were any issues, he would have complained about it a long time ago. But honestly, 200 horsepower seems like too much. But apparently, it works. 25,000 kilometers without problems is already quite a lot.

joergs wrote:

and I know the 200 horsepower, too.

25,000 km without problems is already quite a lot.
Well, but it seems you need a bit of luck for that -> see, for example, the post by Klima96 }.

and I know about the 200 horsepower. 2. . . 25,000 km without problems is already quite a lot.
Well, but it seems you need a bit of luck for that -> see, for example, the post by Klima96 .

Certainly, it also depends a lot on driving habits and how one handles the materials. If someone constantly shows off the powerful torque at every intersection (please don't take this personally!), it's definitely different from using that power in a well-controlled and delicate manner. And this driver with 200 horsepower falls into the latter category.

Hello,

Here's an experience from another manufacturer (the clutch is from Sachs). In the BMW E39 M5 with 500 Nm of torque, the clutch is already stressed from the factory. It's a V8 engine with a dual-mass flywheel (DMF). According to the manufacturer, it's nominally rated for just over 420 Nm. It's very important to properly break in a new clutch. A durable friction layer must first form on the surface. Therefore, for the first 2000 km, drive gently and avoid long periods of full throttle or aggressive starts. After that, you can put it under load. Mine looked quite good after 150,000 km, although it sometimes slipped noticeably during attempts to engage the clutch under full load.
If they are not properly broken in, they can be easily worn out with less than 10,000 kilometers of use.

It's likely only partially transferable, as the torsional vibration of a V8 engine with a dual-mass flywheel is significantly smaller than that of a 4-cylinder engine.

Best regards,
Christian.

jörgs wrote:

If you perhaps show off at every intersection (please don't take this personally!!!!!), that you have a powerful torque monster, it is certainly very different from when you use the power in a well-dosed and sensitive way!

In my opinion, this initially only affects the rate of wear (keyword: "clutch slippage," etc.).
As long as you don't engage the clutch while using the added power from the tuning, the clutch shouldn't wear out any faster than it would without the tuning.

How are printing plates designed in terms of spring force?
Does the clamping force decrease rapidly with a thinner coating because the spring constant provides "a lot of force for a small distance" (I no longer remember what is in the numerator and denominator of the definition ), or is the design focused on "a large distance per force" in order to minimize grip loss until the mechanical wear limit is reached?

chris11 wrote:

It is very important that a new clutch is properly broken in. A durable layer must first form on the surface. Therefore, for the first 2000 km, drive gently and avoid long periods of full throttle or aggressive starts. After that, you can put it under more stress.

Hmm, a completely new aspect (for me).

How should one imagine this durable surface layer (in terms of composition, thickness, consistency, etc.)?

The friction material on the clutch disc should, in theory, be worn away by natural wear, and then you would have a new (thinner) clutch that needs to be broken in again.
Furthermore, the entire process is a continuous one -> therefore, one should actually be constantly breaking them in gently .

Does this durable layer that forms on the flywheel and pressure plate constantly regenerate due to the wear of the clutch disc?

It would be great if you could actually make your clutch "stronger" by carefully easing it in, but I'd also like to understand a bit more precisely what's happening in that process.

Hello Ulf,
I imagine that the clutch doesn't initially have a 100% 'engaged' state, and that by carefully 'engaging' it, the engagement can be improved.
Otherwise, it will become locally hardened (vitrified) due to 'radical' crystallization, and it will be prevented from distributing evenly.
However, I'm not a 'clutch specialist'; the same likely applies to brake pads.
Best regards,
Günther.