Hydraulic Lifters: Problems & Solutions

Hello,

"I've been hearing my lifters very clearly for some time now. A replacement is planned, but how can I tell which specific lifter(s) are actually defective?"
It's unlikely that they will all be consumed at once.
The "growth rings" on the reeds are well-known, but they have nothing to do with the sound, right?

Has anyone noticed any differences between the Febi/INA hydraulic lifters sold on eBay and the original VW hydraulic lifters? I understand that they are likely manufactured by the same company, but is there perhaps a reason why the ones on eBay are so much cheaper?

I'm asking this question because I had the hydraulic lifters replaced at 135,000 km to avoid the expensive price at Volkswagen, and now, at approximately 190,000 km, they are defective again.
(Use a camshaft with a smaller base circle and slightly modified lobes.)

Thank you for your help!
Greetings.
Thomas.

Hi Thomas,

Could it be that your camshaft is damaging the lifters? If the cam lobes are too steep, causing excessive surface pressure at the tip of the lobe, or if there's additional torque being applied to the lifters, then I would probably replace the camshaft. It likely wouldn't make much difference on a TDI engine anyway.

If the cam profile is too steep, the hydraulic lifters will lose contact at the point of reversal and then re-engage.


Normally, these things last a very long time, especially if you don't frequently operate them at their maximum speed.

Was the new wiring already installed when you removed the old hydrants? If so, could you see anything?

Hi,

This is just one of the questions. If the hydro struts were to lift off, wouldn't that indicate valve flutter?

The camshaft came in with the lifters. But I have to admit that the engine has seen high RPMs quite often.

The base circle of the camshaft is smaller, and the flanks are slightly more rounded.
It seems unlikely to me, but it's not impossible.
The valve timing hasn't been fundamentally altered; instead, the valve opens slightly faster and closes a bit slower for a short period. The degree markings have been changed to 240 degrees, and due to the smaller base circle, this results in a stroke of 9.2mm. If I recall correctly, the degree marking on a standard camshaft is 235, with a stroke of 8.8mm. But I can double-check/measure it again. I realize this isn't a huge change, but it was noticeable. You can achieve slightly more power in the higher RPM range without producing excessive soot.

So, there are three possibilities:
1.) Camshaft
2.) Inferior hydroids.
3.) A combination of both.

But how can you tell?
The last time I replaced the hydraulic seals, I could clearly see the growth rings and there were noticeable vertical wear marks (abrasion) on the side.
At VW, I was told that the hydraulic lifters typically need to be replaced every 80,000 km, but this is usually not noticeable with standard engines, and therefore there is no need for action.

Okay, the hydros have to come out anyway. I'm just not sure whether I should buy new ones from VW at a high price or go for the cheaper options. (I ask myself the same question every time with the timing belt and the tensioner... ).

But thank you for your help!
Greetings.
Thomas.

Hello Thomas!
Of course, there is a way to test defective idler pulleys. One method is to apply pressure to the pulley cups with a blunt object; defective ones will crack and/or collapse immediately. Another method is through a simple valve clearance check; defective pulleys will stand out from the rest. However, based on my experience, it's often more cost-effective in the long run to go to a reputable dealer, grudgingly accept the slightly higher price, and buy a complete new set of pulleys. By the way, regarding timing belts... if I can get a complete Contitech kit for the specific vehicle, I usually choose that. If not, I'll just get the belt from Conti and the tensioner pulleys from the dealer, even if it's more expensive.

Best regards,

Dominique.

Hello Dominique,

Quote:

Of course, there is a way to test defective hydros. One method involves applying pressure to the cups with a blunt object; defective ones will crack and/or collapse immediately. Another method is through a simple valve clearance check; defective hydros will stand out accordingly.

I can check them once they've been disassembled. It will certainly be interesting to see if all of them are defective, or just one or two valves.

Quote:

My experience is that, in the long run, it's often more cost-effective to go to a friendly store, grudgingly accept the slightly higher price, and buy a completely new set of cups.

Based on that, I can conclude that you've also had negative experiences with those "eBay sellers," right? Do you know what the differences are?
Supposedly, they all come from the same manufacturer. Could it be that there are tolerances, and if some products don't meet those tolerances, they end up being sold on eBay through a sort of "backdoor" channel?

Greetings.
Thomas.

Hello Thomas!
My experiences in that area were less related to 'I-baaah' products, as those didn't exist in that form yet ...
'But I had lifters installed from Stahlgruber, which are accessories (and I think they were even Febi... it was quite a while ago) in a 1.8-liter gasoline engine (which is basically the same thing, or even has the same part numbers...). I had to do that job twice within less than a year on that vehicle. The customer brought their car to us for maintenance, so I can guarantee that issues like low-quality oil were not the cause; it must have been due to those lifters. They lasted about 20,000 km, and then the first ones started making noise again. It wasn't constant, but after a cold start, you could clearly hear one or two lifters for the first 3-5 km, which is more noticeable in a gasoline engine than in a diesel. So I took out the camshaft again, installed a set of genuine ones from the dealer, and it was fine. And the vehicle was completely original, untouched, including the camshaft. Since then, I haven't done that experiment again, especially because the resale prices of the lifters from the accessories are not really much lower than the original ones, which we as a workshop can also obtain at a slightly cheaper price if we can negotiate.'
Best regards,

Dominique.

Hello Dominique,

I just checked the parts catalog. The pistons have the part number: 034 109 309 AD.
and are listed with a price of €19.32 including VAT.
I think that's the price per item, which means that a complete set costs...
It would cost 154.56 euros. At Ihbäi, you can find them for 49 euros, which is a third of the price!
(The part number for the gasoline engine is 050 109 309 H.)

After approximately 30,000 km, I also thought I could hear the lifters again after a cold start. At least one or two. That was also my assumption, but I ignored it because I thought it couldn't be possible since they were new hydraulic lifters...

Definitely, thanks for your experience; I'll order new hydraulic fluids from the dealer today.

See you later.
Greetings.
Thomas.

PS: Just to be complete, what other effects can defective hydraulic units have? Do the valves no longer open fully? Is there increased noise from the valve actuation? Is there a loss of power?

Hello Thomas!

PS: Just to be complete. What other effects would there be if the hydraulic components were defective? Would the valves no longer open completely, would there be a louder valve actuator, would there be a loss of power?

You've accurately described the effects: valve ticking, incomplete valve opening, and loss of power. Especially in your case, with your modified camshaft, which operates on the principle of using the excess oil to keep the valve open further than a stock camshaft would allow. Your car might potentially perform worse than original if all the lifters are defective...

Best regards,

Dominique.

Hi Thomas,

I also had rattling hydro shocks in my JP.

I wanted to replace them all and had already convinced my friendly mechanic that he would do it for just over 200 German Marks.

Perhaps this will help you as an argument or a guideline for how far you can push them to lower the price.

Greetings.
Martin.

Hello,

What I've noticed is that even with the standard VW field of view, I can see some soot buildup in the rearview mirror. Since the timing belt is due again soon (190,000 km), I'm going to do both things together. It makes sense.

Thank you again for your help.

See you later.
Greetings.
Thomas.

Hello,

I installed eBay piston rods 50,000 km ago (in an Audi 80 1Z) and 30,000 km ago (in a Passat 1Z): so far, they are working perfectly!

Hi,

I have now bought new ones for €166 from VW. If it really is due to the NW (North West), I will know for sure by the middle of next year!
Otherwise, I might have just been unlucky with my eBay purchases.
If I put the old ones outside, you might be able to see more.

@haehnlein

Do you know how the cars are driven?
I suspect that the eBay replacement parts might not offer the same quality as the original parts, but this difference may not be noticeable under "normal and standard" driving conditions.

Let's just wait until they are expanded.

See you later.
Greetings.
Thomas.

Thomas wrote:

Do you know how the cars are driven? I suspect that the eBay replacement parts might not offer the same quality as the original parts, but this may not be noticeable under "normal and standard" driving conditions.

Hi Thomas,

You're right to suspect it: the cars are driven extremely economically. However, I still don't believe that a company can afford to produce two different qualities these days, selling the good quality to Volkswagen and the rest to parts dealers.

Regarding the exhaust system, this might be the case, but definitely not for safety-critical parts. So, if the part is from a company that also supplies Volkswagen, then it can be installed without any problems.

haehnlein wrote:

I still don't believe that a company can afford to produce two different qualities these days, selling the good quality to Volkswagen and the rest to parts dealers. ....

Have you ever heard of selection?
Parts that are discarded or deemed unusable by car manufacturers often end up being sold as "ET" (Ersatzteil - replacement part) in the aftermarket.

Bertil wrote:

Have you ever heard of selection?

Hi Bertil,

While I don't know what insider information you have, I do know that companies like Elring (which makes head gaskets, etc.), SKF, and Contitech (which produces tensioners and timing belts) offer parts through distributors, and the quality of those parts is the same.

However, I agree with you regarding exhaust systems, light bulbs, hoses, etc.

haehnlein wrote:

Bertil wrote: Have you ever heard of selection? Hi Bertil, While I don't know what insider information you have, I do know that companies like Elring (which makes head gaskets, etc.), SKF, and Contitech (which produces tensioners and timing belts) offer parts through distributors, and the quality of those parts is the same.

Theoretically yes, practically no.
The entire production manufactured (and pre-selected) by the manufacturer is supplied to both the car manufacturer and the parts trade. Therefore, the quality of the delivered products is consistent.
However, the car manufacturer often conducts a second inspection, and during this process, a certain percentage of parts still fail to meet the required standards. These defective parts are then returned to the manufacturer (and usually scrapped). Since the parts trade does not perform this level of quality control, they may have a certain proportion of substandard parts in their inventory.
From the manufacturer's perspective, the quality is always consistent with this process. Unfortunately, that is not the case for the end customer.

Years ago, I had the suspicion that there might be different qualities of picture tubes (even though they were the same type). However, a manufacturer of flight simulation equipment quickly explained to me why this wasn't the case. Various flight simulator manufacturers simply sort through the delivered picture tubes and send the rest back to the tube manufacturer. Other flight simulator manufacturers don't care and use everything that is delivered.

Quote:

Regarding exhaust systems, light bulbs, hoses, etc., I agree with you.

Since we often sell the scrap metal that is returned to us to scrap dealers, these "scrap parts" then end up in the spare parts trade through unofficial channels.