Zahnriemenwechselbedingungen: km vs Jahre | Posts 16+

If anyone is interested:
In the Opel forum, someone claimed they never bothered to change the timing belt on their Corsa A C12NZ, but simply waited until it broke.
According to him, the mileage was 222,000 km, while Opel states a mileage of 120,000 km.

HI,

Quote:

In the Opel forum, someone claimed that they never bothered to change the timing belt on their Corsa A C12NZ, but simply waited until it broke.

That's in the same league as trying to figure out how long an engine will run after you remove the oil drain plug...

Best regards,

Jan.

No, Jan... Early Opel models with 8 valves were all known for their timing chains being prone to failure. I know a few people who didn't replace them until they actually broke... although I don't think any of them had reached 100,000 miles by that point.

For example, in my AAT, which has a maintenance interval of 120,000 kilometers, the rear belt broke after 5 years and almost 100,000 kilometers.

If all components are expected to last this long in the future, then the water pumps should also be made more durable.

Of course, the fact that chain or sprocket drives don't last a car's entire lifespan without maintenance puts things into perspective.
The statement regarding maintenance costs.

There used to be a great thread here called 'Maintenance Condition of Some Vehicles.'

with the following photo, provided by VAG-Tuning:
http://img104.echo.cx/img104/3633/img00010bk.jpg

Therefore, one should not rely on age, mileage, or number of uses, but should only replace the belt after a visual inspection, and only when the visual wear limit of approximately 1/4 of the original belt width is reached. Under no circumstances should it be replaced sooner... it's like with tires... it's logical, isn't it! *Duck*

You can find the corresponding slide gauge for checking the remaining lifespan in my eBay shop, alongside my engine healing stones and air filter power pyramids.

ObenbeiMutti wrote:

The fact that chain or sprocket drives do not last an entire car lifespan without maintenance certainly puts things into perspective. The statement regarding maintenance costs.

I would even go further.

Imagine you want to buy a car with 500,000 km on the odometer and you choose one with a timing chain. This is sold to you as maintenance-free (the seller just doesn't know any better ). At 250,000 km, the chain breaks and destroys your engine. The workshop and the manufacturer then suddenly claim, "... a chain replacement would have been necessary..." However, there was nothing about a chain replacement in the maintenance booklet... Of course, the ends were supposed to be replaced beforehand. That's why this timing chain warning only appears in the workshop manuals, and often only for taxi operation.
"So, your engine is now scrap metal, and a repair is no longer worthwhile."
How would you react if your car had not yet reached 75% of the mileage it was supposed to have?
Worse still: you're being passed the hot potato...

I find the timing belt replacement interval of every 120,000 km to be more honest.

Hi Bertil,

'Nice equation, but for me, it has too many unknowns that I refuse to fill in with the hypotheses you mentioned. (250tkm, 500tkm , I'm not posting this from Africa ).'

What does the everyday reality of working in a German workshop really entail?

What is the average lifespan in terms of mileage for modern passenger cars?

How often does this also occur in older gasoline-powered BMWs or diesel-powered Mercedes-Benz vehicles, which, as you mentioned, are...?
are famous for their incredible durability and longevity, but have they ever actually broken the chain?
'A gear set 'adapts' to its chain, so you would logically need to replace the chain as well. In any case, in Germany, with our labor costs, this would almost always be an uneconomical total loss after 200,000 km.'

and how often does something actually happen with vehicles that are not taxis, and therefore...?
Have you ever seen a new chain that lasts a lifetime?

As long as I don't have a representative and objective picture of the situation, I'd like to be cautious about the claim that the belt is, in terms of cost, the dishonest element.

I had to replace the timing belts on my car twice during my youth, and it costs a lot of money in Germany if you can't do it yourself or don't know anyone who can help you out.
(I had the AFN engine until 250,000 km, after that there was nothing more to save, because the rattling Golf was slowly digesting itself around the valiant engine .

Back then, when I bought the 5-year-old AFN Golf, if the used car market had offered comparable, similarly built diesel cars from competitors around '96 (which unfortunately it didn't), I could have used the money I would have spent on those expensive timing belt replacements to buy a better, newer used car. That car could have served me for, say, between 50,000 and 250,000 kilometers.
This is what my equation looks like...

And Jan was actually just trying to find out what an objective standard for ZR (Zylinderkopf-Reparatur) replacements could look like, independent of the mileage.

Looking back, I would have personally extended the interval to 150,000 km, based on regular visual inspections and in the absence of any self-help capabilities.

teileklaus wrote:

Didn't the Polo 1.2 3-cylinder engine also have chain problems?

Hi,

It's not chain problems, but rather tensioner problems. Unfortunately, we're experiencing this ourselves with our Polo 9N (at a mileage of 12 km). However, this was due to a faulty batch of tensioners and is by no means normal wear and tear, especially not at this mileage.

However, I would already like to have something more reliable than just a timing belt with a 90,000 km interval in my car. It currently has 88,000 km on it and is due for a timing belt replacement. The local workshop charges a whopping €750 for the replacement, and I'm currently vowing to myself never to buy another car with such a short interval. Anything I buy in the future will definitely need an interval of at least 180,000 km or have a timing chain instead.

I only know about the early PD models that had service intervals of 60,000 km.
The later ones are still just barely acceptable, with weights of 90 and 120 tons respectively.
Man bedenke die früheren alle 7500 km Ölwechselintervalle zb. beim T 4 AAB waren auch nicht gerade billig : Rechnung 120 000 km = 16 x Ölwechsel 'a 50.- sind 800.- davon die Hälfte, weil jetzt nur alle 15 000 km Wechsel, da habe ich gerade die fehlenden 400.- zum kürzeren Intervall beim teuren 60 000 kM ZR. Wechsel.
Essentially, the same amount of money is paid, but in smaller denominations.
If the mileage requirement is not met, I would leave the issue unresolved until the next mileage interval, but only if a critical inspection of the components (e.g., bearing noise, tension, water pump) reveals no immediate problems.
I've already replaced several PD belts at 60,000 km, even though they were still in almost like-new condition.
On older T4 models with a 5-cylinder engine, the timing belt is a critical component. The EP belt, on the other hand, is less critical; if it fails, the engine simply stops running.
Another thing: Our advantage lies in knowing our weaknesses and taking action to address them proactively.
Each model has its own specific characteristics. Those who learn this and, for example, choose a WP model, may pay more, but they get a reliable car! Other brands come with different problems.
Opel has also learned from its experiences with warranty and product-related issues.

Roger wrote:

However, I would already like to have something more reliable in my maintenance schedule than just a belt with a 90,000 km interval. It currently has 88,000 km on it and is calling for a timing belt replacement. The workshop here charges a whopping €750 for the replacement, and I'm currently vowing to myself never to buy another car with such a short interval.

Hi Roger,

The 96kW Polo TDI has 120,000 km .

But even if the cost increases by €750 every 90,000 km, it only increases the cost per kilometer by a mere 0.833 cents. So, approximately how much are your "additional" costs per kilometer?

@ Jochen

I don't have a sports car or a taxi, and I don't need one. Like most people who buy used cars, I would be driving a car with mileage between 20,000 and 250,000 kilometers if I couldn't get a newer one. I still have that ARL monster, and the timing belt replacement is due soon. But I wouldn't care about that, resale value arguments aside.

I would only consider my assessment to be shortsighted if I failed to weigh the risk of a breach at a defined interval against the costs of switching.

By changing the oil early, I'm only buying myself a better chance of a longer engine life, or I'm essentially gambling with the health of the engine, using the cost of the oil change as the stake.

To what extent is one behavior more economically sensible than the other?
Investing in lottery tickets or Riester pensions is certainly not economically sensible, but investing in the aging belt drive might actually be worthwhile...

Creating clarity is the intention of the introductory statement.

It's possible that occasionally, a belt might break within the first 20,000 km. It's also possible that 98% of all belt drives could potentially reach the 200,000 km mark if they were simply allowed to continue operating. The question of where, within that range, an optimal replacement time would be, based on different patterns, remains a statistical problem that I'd prefer to solve myself rather than leave to the capitalists.

Here, the question becomes philosophical, and it's difficult to answer rationally.

Many people buy a sense of security and are happy to pay for it (e.g., Riester pensions, inflated military budgets, alarm systems, numerous insurance policies, prostate cancer screenings, etc.). This amounts to billions of euros annually, which disappear into an illusion of security *poof*.

Some people don't need it because fears play a minor role in their reality system. Instead, they invest in hedonism and are happy to pay for enjoyment.

It remains to be seen which mentality is more questionable. One person enjoys life, while the other experiences fear. The fearful person tends to quickly question the 'fun-loving' person's morality or rationality. ('Short-sighted'). One person pays for enjoyment in life, while the other pays to make the fear of life bearable.

I certainly don't want manufacturers, who are only doing this with the intention of exploiting me or getting out of trouble at my expense, to dictate to me where the right shade of gray lies in this black-and-white situation. Unfortunately, that's just how our capitalist system works.

I just want to warn all used car buyers to consider buying from a reputable dealer, because it often pays off in the long run, until the car is sold or breaks down. This factor is rarely included in people's calculations, because someone like Lieschen Müller probably doesn't even know what a timing chain is and doesn't care. The unpleasant surprise comes when you suddenly have to spend 750 euros on repairs, and you're stressed about being without a car for a day.

ulf wrote:

Roger wrote: However, I would already like to have something more reliable in my maintenance schedule than just a belt with a 90,000 km interval. It currently has 88,000 km on it and is calling for a timing belt replacement. The workshop here charges a whopping €750 for the replacement, and I'm currently swearing to myself that I will never buy another car with such a short interval. Hi Roger, The 96kW Polo TDI has 120,000 km . But even if the cost increases by €750 every 90,000 km, it only increases the cost per kilometer by a whole 0.833 cents... what are your approximate "additional" kilometer costs?

Hello Ulf,

It's not just the costs, but the overall expenses that are incurred.

- Inquire about/compare workshop prices (in my experience, they extremely struggle to provide transparency and offer quotes).
- Rental car during your stay.
- Detour required for dropping off/picking up the vehicle before/after office hours.
- Review/inspection of the work, potentially leading to issues with complaints/rework (the previous workshops have unfortunately already caused quite a bit of trouble in this regard).

or alternatively

- Determine the effort required for self-repair, and obtain relevant guides.
- Ensure the safety of specialized tools/equipment/platform/motorized crane.
- Determine the correct tensioner part number (see the troubleshooting process with Matthias regarding the ASZ and the incorrect association of engine number to tensioner) or purchase a second one and return the incorrect one.
- Take vacation time to potentially obtain parts during regular business hours while the system is being changed.
- Hold your breath, hoping everything will work perfectly the first time (Risk = €6,500 + installation ).


For me, it's an annoying extra expense that, in the age of extended maintenance intervals, ultimately only benefits the workshops with a lot of extra work, in my opinion. From a purely constructive point of view, there's certainly a valve control system that could last a lifetime (i.e., for me 250,000 km) even in diesel engines - if the manufacturers only wanted it to. In the past, it was said that the timing belt was a necessary evil because the common rail (PD) principle placed extreme and uneven stress on the valve drive, and a chain couldn't withstand that stress, not to mention the difficult-to-compensate longitudinal expansion. Then came the promising switch to common rail (CR) - and yet these cars have a timing belt again!

I've always driven my new (gasoline-powered) cars to 100,000-110,000 km without ever worrying about timing belt replacements. Thanks to the DPF issue, this might be the case again in the future, because I might then opt for a smaller TSI engine. I find it a shame when the small amount you save at the gas station later has to be compensated for by three-digit hourly rates at the workshop. This already ruined the cost-benefit ratio of the 3-liter Lupo with its (at least initially) 60,000 km service interval.

It's interesting to see what this discussion has evolved into. It started with a question about whether there's a lifespan limit for timing belts... Now, after some poetic diversions from ObenbeiMutti and other more or less related contributions, we probably haven't really made any progress.

We now know what the various personal opinions are regarding such a component. Subjective advantages and disadvantages have been described.

We are also a forum here for people who like to do their own repairs... so, a silly belt like that costs less than a new set of tires, and those need to be replaced more often.

"Oh Roger, if you follow the instructions carefully, you won't have to be afraid when you turn the key..."

It's a shame that the discussion on this topic has stopped, as I would be very interested in learning more.

Specifically, if we want to estimate a time interval, let's consider the following:

- Are there any specific cases of timing belt failures that occurred before the scheduled replacement interval? How long were they in use before failing, in terms of time and mileage? Was the failure actually due to the belt itself (age), or was it caused by seized tensioner pulleys or the water pump?

Best regards from Munich!

Yes, before the interval: The T4 ACV 5-cylinder engine with less than 4 years of use has not reached 90,000 kilometers.
"It happened on the highway near Bruchsal. Everything was resolved free of charge!"
No cause specified.

Hi Klausi!

Thank you for the information.
Exactly at how many kilometers? 89,999? *g*
And what was the "driving profile" like? Was it long distances? Was there a lot of full throttle and high RPMs?