Engine Failure: AFB, 3 Years, 125,000 km

Hi!

'Last week, my car's engine seized.'
(VW V6 TDI engine, 110kW, with 125,000 km, used for 3 years and 3 days).

-> In the afternoon, the engine was still running at full power... then about 15 minutes of city driving. Parked in a parking lot. After 3 hours:

- ABS light illuminates. ESP light illuminates. Tiptronic switches to emergency mode.
- Hardly any power. I managed to get it to a gas station (about 800 meters), but then I decided to just leave it there.

- Workshop - Removed cylinder head cover. Camshafts have been machined (approximately 1-2 mm removed). Removed cylinder heads. -> Valves have collided with pistons.

According to the workshop: engine damage. Irreparable. It is recommended not to replace the cylinder heads, as the pistons/crankshaft are likely to be damaged as well.
'It seems like the engine hasn't fully recovered from the previous issue. The workshop says the only likely cause is 'wear and tear'. Apparently, the rocker arms (or lifters???) broke and ended up wedged in the cylinder head...'

Audi replacement engine: €6700 plus €800 for small parts plus €1500 for labor.
Used engine, approximately 35,000 km, around €3500, available from a dealer (if one can be found).

The dealer's computer system returns '0' or 'NIGGS' when responding to goodwill requests for Audi. The workshop says they have never seen anything like it (this type of damage).

I called Audi and demanded at least a 70% replacement. Let's see how they react.

Do you have any tips?

Specifically:

a) Is it true that the pistons/crankshaft might be damaged, and that replacing the cylinder heads doesn't really solve the problem?

b) What is the best approach to dealing with Audi when it comes to 'goodwill' or concessions? Is it effective to threaten to go to the press, or what is the best way to be effective?

Regards,
Felix.

Hi Felix,

That's quite a bitter situation.

I hope you were at one of the so-called specialized workshops...

What I'm writing to you here is my personal opinion.
Okay, so: If one or more of the rocker arms break, the valves will no longer open. Therefore, they also cannot collide with the pistons. This means that it can only have happened at the moment when it broke/they broke. (A false position between the cam and the valve due to the breakage could cause the valve to open too far. But I personally can't imagine that.)
It is not necessarily true that contact between the piston and valves always results in a complete engine failure. It is quite possible that at least the crankshaft and its bearings remain intact. Furthermore, the pistons and connecting rods do not necessarily have to be broken.
How can the workshop make such a claim without even disassembling the cylinder heads?
Did the workshop also check the timing belt?
When was that changed?

Regarding your question about goodwill/leniency...
Take a look inside.
Community >> Error Database >> Problem and Solution >> Audi A2 to A6 Good Will Policy, Engine Area.

Maybe you'll find something interesting in there.

Regarding your call, the esteemed gentlemen at Audi AG will likely dismiss it without a second thought. If anything, such a request must come from a dealer. And I would expect that the dealer would first demand full coverage of the costs. You can always try to negotiate...
However, I'm not really sure about the testing method used by your dealer.
Now, however, I don't know the working methods of workshops. Perhaps this is even normal...

If they refuse to cooperate despite negotiations with the specialized workshop, I would contact Auto Bild and mark it as "urgent." They must be making a lot of money on those repair costs...

As mentioned before... everything I have written is my own opinion. If I have misinterpreted anything, please feel free to point it out. However, I don't think there will be much to correct.
Please keep us updated on this matter. This case is of interest to everyone, especially the outcome.
I'm sending you all my best wishes and keeping my fingers crossed for you!!!

Regards,
Wool

Hi Felix,
That's quite a bitter situation.

I hope you were at one of the so-called specialized workshops...


Hi...

Yes. This vehicle has only ever been serviced by the same workshop since it was first registered. The timing belt was replaced during the 120,000 km service.

Regarding the issue of 'must originate from the workshop,' it seems the workshop accesses an electronic system where warranty claims are electronically classified, and a corresponding warranty approval is immediately granted.

It's possible that this is always an isolated incident with such high amounts and requires the attention of a specialist. The field technician will be back tomorrow and will address the issue immediately (or so I was promised).

According to Audi, decisions on such goodwill cases are made within 10-14 calendar days. That means I won't have my car for that long.

Let's see, I'll keep you updated...

Regards,
Felix.

Hello Flaufer,

your Tiptronic (the designation for the ZF multi-speed automatic transmission used by Audi).
I find it a bit strange that it's going into the emergency program.

The power control only intervenes when signals such as speed or torque are missing.

Did your workshop remove the transmission oil pan and inspect it for debris or shavings?

Transmission fault memory?

Converter Blue (overtemperature)?

Greetings from Lake Constance.

The vehicle has only ever been serviced at the same workshop since its first registration. The timing belt was replaced during the 120,000 km service.
That's making me think of something again...
And specifically, the following:
Your engine damage is approximately 5000 km away from the timing belt replacement. Of course, the workshop is reluctant to acknowledge it. The background is that Audi will definitely not} cover such damage – and for me, it's almost certainly that, because the valves are stuck, the broken rocker arms are a result of that, and they absorbed the excess energy. I would investigate further, and if you remove the timing belt cover in their workshop and take a look yourself.

Best regards,

Dominique.

Hi.

5000 km since the belt change... and that reminds me, the crankshaft sprocket probably came loose again.
However, I don't know if this needs to be addressed during the V6 timing belt replacement.
If so, a faulty installation followed by the loosening (presumably by itself) and consequently incorrect valve timing, leading to valve damage, would be a significant clue.

I would like to investigate this further, and if you have access to the vehicles in the yard, you could remove the timing belt cover and take a look yourself.


How is one supposed to imagine that?

I might be able to figure out where the timing belt cover is, but it would also get my hands dirty to unscrew it, and I have a flashlight I could use to see inside.

What I would then see... I couldn't interpret. How would I imagine that? A timing belt that has slipped off its alignment?

Hmmm. Thanks for the tip... The thought of a possible connection had also occurred to me... but it's hard to confirm.

Regards,
Felix.

Perhaps it's a torn or slipped timing belt. If that's the case, your description of the damage actually fits quite well, because the valves and pistons will collide, resulting in valve damage and usually devastating consequences for the engine.

Regarding what has been written in the Polo forum about valve problems, I have to say that the crankshafts usually survive. However, these were gasoline engines, which actually supports the theory that the crankshafts should be more robust in diesel engines.

I would suggest bringing a camera with you. That way, you can document everything while the workshop staff are present, and if necessary, you can even post pictures here on the forum to get opinions.

Best regards,

Jan.

I would suggest, in your place, taking a camera so you can document it in the presence of the workshop staff, and if necessary, also post pictures here in the forum for opinions.


I'll do that. Digital camera images don't cost much, and it can't get any worse than photographing an engine failure.

<- not quite yet.

Regards,
Felix.

Hello Flaufer!
Wenn du, sollte dein Motorcrash wirklich daher rühren, den Zahnriemen bzw. die Steuerzeiten untersuchst, dann gibt es verschiedene Dinge, die du dann feststellen könntest. Zum einen gibt es im Riementrieb Spann- und Umlenkrollen, welche getauscht werden bzw. bei der Montage des Riemens deren Schrauben gelöst und logischerweise wieder angezogen werden müssen, also kontrollieren, ob da alles fest sitzt. Ebenso haben diese Rollen alle Lager, welche bei nicht korrekter (in der Regel bei zu starker) Spannung des Riemens platzen können, also auch schön zu erkennen. Ferner, sollte der Riemen gesprungen sein oder zu locker gespannt gewesen sein, dann findest du die abgefetzten Zähne unter der Verkleidung. Und sollte das alles nicht zutreffen, musst du die Kontrollmarkierungen für das auflegen des Riemens herdrehen um zu Prüfen, ob die Nockenwellen, die Pumpe und die Kurbelwelle richtig zueinander laufen. Kleiner Aufruf an die hier im Forum vertretenen Audi/VW-Leute (ich denke doch, dass da jemand ist...): vielleicht kann ja jemand eine Beschreibung dieser Kontrollpunkte und wo sie schnell für jemanden, der nicht unbedingt Mechaniker ist, zu finden sind. Unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity to work on a V6-TDI engine yet, otherwise I would be happy to help out.

Naturally, the burden of proof for this matter lies with you. However, if the workshop were to be unreasonably difficult about it (even though they are insured), and the damage is indeed related, then the idea of using Auto Bild as leverage might still be worth considering...

Best regards,

Dominique.

Hello,

I would be cautious about shifting the burden of proof to the customer, because since January 1, 2002, the consumer has been relieved of this responsibility, and the burden of proof has been shifted to the seller (workshop). The reason for this change is that the customer lacks the necessary technical expertise to secure the required evidence. However, this can also be disadvantageous, as evidence can also be destroyed. If necessary, I would consult with an independent expert or refer the matter to a lawyer (which should only be done if you have legal protection insurance).

Best regards, Bertil.

Regarding your call, the esteemed gentlemen at Audi AG will most likely dismiss it outright. If anything, such a request must come from a dealer. And in that case, I would expect the dealer to first demand a 100% coverage of the costs. You can always try to negotiate...

Here's the current status:

- The vehicle has been sitting untouched in the corner of the workshop for about a week. Both cylinder heads are removed. The pistons and valves have 'damage' (likely referring to scoring or other issues).

- After sending a fax to Audi's customer service department, things started to move. Audi called the workshop, and the workshop pointed out that this was the third vehicle they had in their yard in a week with the same problem (at least the cylinder heads were affected), and that it was probably a widespread issue.

- I contacted Autobild and AMS to inquire about the possibility of an article covering known issues with a specific engine type. So far, there have been no results, but I was assured that they would look into it (search the archives).

- Another call from Audi on the same day... they said they would make a decision by Friday. My dealer thinks 'it's probably around a 50% chance.'

- The Germans won, so nothing else happened today...

... I'm now waiting for some kind of statement. I called again this morning and put a little pressure on them.

Nothing new.

Regards,
Felix.

Hi!

After two weeks of consideration, Audi has apparently agreed to cover 100% of the repair costs for my A4 (B5, 110kW, 2.5 TDI QTip). However, 'fluids' such as oil, windshield washer fluid, and coolant additives are likely excluded.

Generally, it seems that Audi contacted my workshop, and according to the workshop manager, they said something like, 'Please enter these specific error codes. See? There's a goodwill allowance available.' Apparently, this option was available before, but the mechanic hadn't found it. I asked the mechanic for the error codes, but he said he's not allowed to tell me.

Also Fazit: Audi zahlt die 9000€ Rechnung. Puh.

what remains open:

- Why aren't they covering the same cost for the taxi that was also in the workshop at the same time, and which apparently only had issues with the cylinder heads? It also had all its inspections done, and given its age (1.5 years old, 160,000 km), it's not that far off in terms of age and mileage.

- I still don't know WHY they're paying for it.

- what was actually broken.

- Do I have a warranty on the replacement engine?

According to the Audi hotline: Yes, but I should contact the workshop again.

According to the workshop: since I didn't pay any extra, the answer is NO.

What's wrong?

Regards,
Felix.

Hello!

I also find it very puzzling that Audi isn't covering the costs of the taxi you mentioned.

I once read that Audi and VW are particularly generous when it comes to taxis, and this is mainly to build a good reputation.
Mercedes has also built its good reputation for diesel engines, in part, due to the high mileage achieved by taxis.
It seems that VW (and possibly Audi) will likely take over the cost of the first two timing belt replacements and similar maintenance items for taxis.

That's why I would have assumed that you were standing in the rain while the taxi driver got a brand new engine.

Or did you threaten the press?

Markus.

I once read that Audi and VW are particularly generous, especially when it comes to taxis. This is mainly to get a good reputation.

Hi Markus,

I heard that Audi might be offering two different models for taxi services.

a) The listed price is a starting point, with room for negotiation with the dealer, followed by the usual goodwill policy.

b) 25% discount off the list price, but with no additional customer service or flexibility beyond the legal requirements.

I don't know if that's actually being planned or if it's truly being put into practice... I have no idea.

Perhaps the taxi company simply didn't perform all the necessary inspections correctly.

Best regards, Felix.

Hi,

Perhaps your question about the warranty for the ATM has already been resolved.

But recently, I spoke with a law student about this issue out of curiosity.
He said, similar to your workshop, that in this case, there probably won't be a warranty, since it's a gesture of goodwill from Audi amounting to 100%.
Basically, you were put in a situation where it was assumed that the damage didn't actually occur.
And, of course, the warranty on the old engine had expired more than 3 years ago.

Information provided without guarantee!

Markus.