Capital Engine Damage. AFB, 3 years + 3 days with 125,000 km

Hi!

Last week, my engine was completely destroyed...
(AFB Engine V6 TDI 110kW with 125,000 km, driven for 3 years and 3 days)

-> In the afternoon, run the engine at full power... then drive in city traffic for about 15 minutes. Parking. After 3 hours:

- ABS light is on. ESP light is on. Tiptronic switches to emergency mode.
- Barely any performance left. I still had to get to a gas station (about 800 meters away), and I preferred to leave him there instead.

- Workshop - Removed cylinder head cover. Adjusted camshafts (trimmed approximately 1-2 mm). Remove cylinder heads. -> Valves are fitted onto the pistons.

According to the workshop: Engine damage. Irreparable. Please refrain from replacing the cylinder heads, as the pistons/crankshaft are likely
also auch den Schlag noch nicht richtig verarbeitet hat. The only possible cause, according to the workshop, seems to be 'wear and tear'. It seems the lever (or linkage lever ???) has broken and been jammed into the cylinder head...

Audi replacement engine: 6700 € plus 800 € small parts plus 1500 € labor.
Used engine, approximately 35,000 km, approximately 3500 € from a dealer (if one can be found).

The dealer's IT system responds to goodwill requests from AUDi with '0' or 'NIGGS'. The workshop says they haven't seen anything like this before (such damage).

I called Audi and demanded at least 70% replacement. Let's see how they react.

Do you have any tips?

Specifically:

a) Is it true that the 'pistons/crankshaft' can 'take a beating' and that replacing the cylinder heads doesn't really solve the problem?

b) How can one best deal with Audi regarding 'goodwill'? Should you threaten to go to the press or what is the best way to effectively handle the situation?

Greetings
Felix

[Translating...]

Hi Felix,

das ist ja eine bittere Angelegenheit.

Ich hoffe, Du warst in einer der sog. Fachwerkstätten....

Was ich Dir hier schreibe, ist meine persönliche Meinung.
Also: Wenn einer oder auch mehrere der Kipphebel brechen, gehen die Ventile nicht mehr auf. Ergo können sie doch auch nicht mit den Kolben kollidieren. Das heißt, dass es eigentlich nur in dem Moment passiert sein kann, als er oder sie gebrochen ist/sind. ( Falsche Lage zwischen Nocke und Ventil durch den Bruch und dadurch ein zu weit öffnendes Ventil. Kann ich mir persönlich aba nicht vorstellen.
Das ein Kontakt zwischen Kolben und Ventilen immer einen Motortotalschaden nach sich zieht, ist nicht richtig. Es ist durchaus möglich, dass zumindestens die Kurbelwelle samt Lagerschalen heil geblieben ist. Auch die Kolben/Pleul müssen nicht unbedingt kaputtgegangen sein.
Wie kann die Werkstatt so etwas nur behaupten, ohne wenigstens die Zylinderköpfe demontiert zu haben.
Hat die Werkstatt dann auch mal nach dem Zahnriemen gesehen???
Wann wurde der denn gewechselt???

Zu Deiner Frage mit der Kulanz....
schau doch mal hier herein:
Community>>Fehlerdatenbank>>Problem und Lösung>>Kulanzpolitik Audi A2 bis A6, Bereich Motor

Vielleicht ist da ja etwas interessantes für Dich dabei.

Was Deinen Anruf angeht, den werden die werten Herren der Audi AG ganz locker abschmettern. Wenn überhaupt, dann muss eine solche Aktion von einem Händer kommen. Und da würde ich erwarten, dass der Händler erst einmal eine 100%ige Kostenübernahme einfordert. Drücken lassen kann man sich immer noch.....
Bei der Prüfmethode Deines Händlers weiß ich allerdings nicht recht.......
Nun kenne ich allerdings die Arbeitsweise der Fachwerkstätten nicht. Vielleicht ist das ja sogar normal...

Wenn die sich trotz Verhandlungen mit der Fachwerkstatt querstellen, würde ich mich mit einem "Dringend" an die Autobild wenden. Bei den Reparaturkosten müssten die doch Blut lecken.....

Wie bereits erwähnt....alles was ich geschrieben habe, ist meine eigene Meinung. Falls ich hier also irgendetwas nicht ganz richtig gesehen haben sollte, wird man mich auch darauf hinweisen. Ich denke aba, dass das nicht viel sein kann.
Sei doch bitte so nett und halte uns hier auf dem Laufenden. Ein solcher Fall ist für alle interessant. Vor allem das Ergebnis.
Ich drücke Dir gaaaaanz feste die Daumen!!!

Gruß
Wolle

Hi Felix,
das ist ja eine bittere Angelegenheit.

Ich hoffe, Du warst in einer der sog. Fachwerkstätten....


Moin...

Ja. Das Fahrzeug hat seit seiner Erstzulassung immer nur die gleiche Werkstatt gesehen. Zahnriemen wurde bei der 120.000er Inspektion getauscht.

Zur Sache mit 'muss von der Werkstatt ausgehen'. Die Werkstatt schaut wohl in so ein elektronisches System rein, in dem Kulanzsachverhalte dann elektronisch klassifiziert und eine entsprechende Kulanzzusage sofort erteilt wird.

Möglicherweise ist dies bei so hohen Beträgen immer ein Einzelfall und benötigt einen Blick eines Sachbearbeiters. Der Aussendienstler wird mrogen wieder da sein und sich der Sache gleich angenommen werden (hat man mir versprochen).

Laut Audi sind solche Kulanzsachen in 10-14 Kalendertagen entschieden. Solange hab ich also keine Karre.

Mal sehen, ich halt Euch auf dem Laufenden....

Gruss
Felix

[Translating...]Hallo Flaufer,

das deine Tiptronic ( Bezeichnung des Stufenautomaten der ZF bei Audi)
in das Notprogamm geht finde ich etwas seltsam.

Das Macht die Getriebesteuerung nur, wenn Signale wie Drehzahl, Nm etc fehlen.

Hat Deine Werkstatt die Ölwanne des Getriebes entfernt und auf Späne etc. inspiziert?

Fehlerspeicher Getriebe?

Wandler Blau ( Übertemperatur)?

Grüße vom Bodensee

The vehicle has always been serviced by the same garage since its first registration. Timing belt was replaced during the 120,000 mile service.
...and I'm already having thoughts about it again...
And that's what I mean. {DEFINITION} {EXAMPLE} {CONCLUSION}
Your engine damage is approximately 5000 km away from the timing belt replacement. Of course, the workshop is refusing to cover it. The background is that Audi will definitely not cover such damage - and for me, there is really no other option - but the workshop. The reason for this is that the broken rocker arms, which are a result of the damage, have received the excess energy. I would like to conduct some investigations in that regard, and if you remove the timing belt cover on the farm and inspect it yourself.

Greetings,

Dominique

Hi

5000 km since belt replacement... that immediately reminds me of the loosened crankshaft sprocket.
I, however, don't know if this needs to be addressed during the V6 belt replacement.
If so, an incorrect assembly followed by (independent) loosening and consequently incorrect valve timing leading to valve failure would, IMO, be a very likely scenario.

I would like to conduct some investigations in that regard, and if you remove the timing belt cover on the farm and inspect it yourself.


How should I introduce myself?

I might be able to figure out where the timing belt cover is, and I could also get my hands dirty to remove it, and I still have a flashlight that I could use to shine inside...

What I would then see, ... however, I couldn't interpret. How would I imagine that? A misaligned timing belt?

Hmmm. Thank you for the tip... the thought of a possible connection also occurred to me... but I don't know for sure.

Greetings
Felix

[Translating...]

Vielleicht auch einen zerfetzten oder uebergesprungenen Zahnriemen. Wenn das passiert, dann passt die Beschreibung deines Schadens eigentlich ganz gut - denn kollidieren Ventile und Kolben, und es gibt Ventilsalat mit meist entsetzlichen Folgen fuer den Motor.

Wobei ich nach dem, was im Polo-Forum so ueber Ventilsalat geschrieben wurde, sagen muss, dss die Kurbelwellen das meist ueberlebt haben - waren allerdings auch Benziner, was aber eher fuer die Theorie spricht, da die Wellen beim Diesel stabiler sein sollten.

Ich wuerd an deiner Stelle eine Kamera mitnehmen, dann kannst du es im Beisein der Werkstattleute dokumentieren, und notfalls auch Bilder hier ins Forum setzen zwecks Meinungsaeusserungen.

Viele Gruesse,

Jan

Ich wuerd an deiner Stelle eine Kamera mitnehmen, dann kannst du es im Beisein der Werkstattleute dokumentieren, und notfalls auch Bilder hier ins Forum setzen zwecks Meinungsaeusserungen.


Werd ich tun. Digicambilder koschten ja net viel und weniger als einen Motordefekt zu fotografieren kanns ja nicht werden.

<- noch nicht ganz.

Gruss
Felix

Hello, you guys!
If your engine has crashed due to a broken timing belt or chain, then there are several things you can check. First, in a belt-driven system, there are tension and guide pulleys that need to be replaced or have their screws loosened and tightened during the belt installation. Therefore, you need to check that everything is securely fastened. These pulleys also have bearings, which can fail if the belt is not properly (usually too tightly) tensioned. You can easily see this. Furthermore, if the belt is frayed or too loose, you will find the worn teeth under the cover. And if none of this applies, you need to check the control markings for laying out the belt to verify that the cams, pump, and crankshaft are properly aligned. A request to the Audi/VW people who are active in this forum (I'm sure there's someone...): perhaps someone can provide a description of these control points and where they can be easily found for someone who is not necessarily a mechanic. Unfortunately, I haven't personally encountered a V6-TDI engine yet, so I wouldn't be able to offer any assistance.

The burden of proof for this matter logically lies with you. But should the workshop really act stubborn about this (even though they are insured), if the damage is actually due to this, then the idea of using Auto Bild as leverage might still be considered...

Greetings,

Dominique

Hello,

Being cautious with the "burden of proof" principle, as it shifted on January 1, 2002, placing the responsibility on the customer, I would say that the customer no longer has this responsibility, and the burden of proof is now assigned to the seller (workshop). The reason for this change was that the customer does not have the necessary expertise and therefore cannot provide the necessary evidence. However, this can also be a disadvantage, as evidence can also be destroyed. In case of need, I would consider consulting an independent expert or assigning the matter to a lawyer (this is only advisable if you have an existing legal protection insurance).

Best regards, Bertil

Regarding your call, the esteemed gentlemen at Audi AG will certainly handle it with ease. If anything, such an action should come from a professional. And in that case, I would expect the professional to first demand a 100% cost coverage. One can still express oneself...

Current Status:

- The car has been sitting in the corner of the workshop for about 1 week, with both cylinder heads removed. Pistons and valves have a 'kick'.

- After sending a FAX to Kulanzinis at Audi, things started to move... there was a call from Audi to the workshop. The workshop has pointed out that this is the third vehicle they have on the lot with THIS damage in a week (usually just the cylinder heads), and that it must be some kind of problem.

- I contacted Auto Bild and AMS to inquire about the availability of an article on known problems with the engine category. So far, no results. However, I have been assured that a revision will be provided (searching the archive).

- Another call from Audi on the same day... they said they would make a decision by Friday. My dealer says 'I estimate around 50%'.

- The Germans have won, it's Friday, nothing more happened...

... I am now waiting for some kind of response. I called again this morning and put a little pressure on.

Nothing new.

Greetings
Felix

Hi!

Audi has, after 2 weeks, apparently agreed to cover 100% of the repair costs for my A4 (B5, 110kW, 2.5 TDI QTip). Exempt from this would likely be 'liquids', such as oil, windshield washer fluid, and coolant.

Overall, it seems that Audi contacted my workshop. According to the workshop manager, they said, 'Please enter these and that error code. See? There's some leeway.' Apparently, this had happened before, and the mechanic didn't go to the workshop. I asked him about the error number... but he shouldn't be able to tell me (that's what he says).

So, Fazit: Audi will die Rechnung über 9000€ bezahlen. Ugh.

what remains open:

- Why don't they pay for that taxi as well, which was also in the garage at the same time and apparently only had cylinder head replacements? Also, all inspections have been carried out and, considering the age (1.5 years, 160,000 km), it's not too far off.

- I still don't know WHY they do it.

- what was actually defective.

- Do I have a warranty on the replacement engine?

According to the Audi hotline: Yes, but I should contact the workshop again.

According to the workshop: since I didn't pay an extra Euro, NO.

What is true?

Greetings
Felix

Hello!

I'm also very puzzled as to why Audi doesn't cover the costs in the case you mentioned!

I have read that Audi and VW are currently very accommodating towards taxi companies. This is done solely to establish a good reputation.
Mercedes has also damaged its good image of diesel engines due to the high mileage of taxis.
VW (possibly also Audi) is reportedly planning to cover the first 2 timing belt replacements and other related services for taxis.

Therefore, I would have more likely assumed that you were standing in the rain, while the taxi entrepreneur was getting a brand new engine.

Or did you threaten the press?

Markus.

I've heard that Audi and VW are currently very accommodating towards taxi companies. This is done solely to establish a good reputation.

Hi Markus,

I've heard that there are supposedly two models available from Audi for use with taxis...

a) List price with room for negotiation with the retailer and then the usual customer service procedure

b) 25% discount on the listed price, but without any additional concessions beyond the legal requirements.

I don't know if this is being planned or actually put into practice... No idea...

Maybe the taxi simply didn't have all the inspections done correctly...

Best regards, Felix

Hi,

It is possible that your question about the ATM warranty has already been answered.

But I recently had a conversation with a budding lawyer about this issue, purely out of curiosity.
He said - similar to your workshop - that there probably wouldn't be any guarantee in this case, as it would involve a 100% goodwill gesture from Audi.
Basically, you were essentially made to believe that the damage hadn't actually occurred.
And, regarding the old engine, there was also no warranty left after more than 3 years.

Disclaimer: Informationen ohne Gewähr.

Markus.