Operating a climate control system with insufficient refrigerant - harmful?

HI,

I suspect that the Leon has too little refrigerant in the Climatronic system.

Is it harmful to continue running them, or is it absolutely necessary to refill them, or can I take my time with it?

How can this be explained technically?

m;

If there is insufficient refrigerant for the air conditioning system to operate, pressure sensors in the high and low pressure ranges will shut it down to prevent damage to the compressor.

If the compressor is still running, a critical refrigerant level has not been reached. However, the compressor will be under greater strain because it has to produce more power in order to achieve the same cooling effect, or at least to try.

It's not an urgent matter to refill the refrigerant, as the cooling performance gradually decreases once a certain amount is missing.

The loss can be attributed to the gradual leakage of refrigerant through small, unavoidable leaks in seals, hoses, and other connections. The amount of refrigerant lost increases proportionally to the operating pressure of the air conditioning system.

"Thank you, that's somewhat reassuring."

The weather is still mild, but it's not getting really cold.
This causes the ventilation fan to constantly run at a noisy, high speed.

m;

Then it's time! Especially since running it anymore doesn't achieve anything!

It should also be noted that the refrigerant circuit also includes lubricating oil for the compressor.

Therefore, I would use/load the compressor as little as possible.

If you know your engine oil is at its minimum level, you wouldn't go rally racing.

It should also be noted that the refrigerant circuit also includes lubricating oil for the compressor...

Therefore, I would use/load the compressor as little as possible.

If you know that your engine oil is at its minimum level, you wouldn't go on a rally.

Absolutely correct!! And more important than one might think, because the compressor needs to deliver high performance despite poor lubrication.

In this process, many compressors fail.
If the high-pressure switch or the anti-icing switch shuts off the air conditioning, the refrigerant level is already extremely low. However, just above this threshold, it operates continuously in a critical range. This has already cost the lives of many people.

Therefore, it's better to drive without air conditioning or to refill the air conditioning system.
'I wouldn't drive for half a year under those conditions, assuming regular use of the air conditioning.'

I don't understand why the climate isn't taken into account in the maintenance intervals of vehicles. The climate is definitely not maintenance-free.

Best regards, Jochen.

Jochen_145 wrote:

I don't understand why the climate

is not taken into account in the maintenance intervals of vehicles. The Klima is definitely not maintenance-free.
To deceive customers about the ongoing costs and, in doing so, secure the maximum number of climate-related orders in the new car business?

To appear as favorably as possible when comparing standard maintenance costs (according to the maintenance manual specifications) in industry publications, while still covering all safety-critical work?

To inflate the numbers for damage and repair revenue related to air conditioning systems, rather than simply squeezing small amounts of money from customers upfront?

There are many reasons...

Jochen_145 wrote:

I don't understand why the climate

is not taken into account in the maintenance intervals of vehicles. The Klima is definitely not maintenance-free.

I see that – except for the regular replacement of the pollen filter. As long as the system cools well, no maintenance on the refrigerant circuit is necessary. The potential risk of contamination is greater than the small amount of refrigerant loss. However, as soon as the cooling performance noticeably decreases, an alarm should be raised, and I completely agree with you on that point. On the one hand, the pressure switch does not always work reliably, and on the other hand, the compressor heats up considerably under constant maximum load when there is too little refrigerant. This affects the entire refrigerant circuit. I know of a case from my colleagues involving a Ford Scorpio where, after a while, all the flanges had burst due to overheating. And the compressor kept running, even with the pressure switch engaged, until it was completely damaged. It was quite an expensive thing.

According to a study by the German Environment Agency that I have reviewed, which examined a larger number of air-conditioned cars from several manufacturers, the natural refrigerant loss in car air conditioning systems, caused by diffusion and micro-leaks (typically from hoses, O-rings, and shaft seals), is approximately 6-10% per year. According to this study, a reduced cooling performance becomes noticeable after a loss of about 40%. Therefore, a refill may be necessary approximately every 4th to 6th year. It may become necessary to operate for a full business year.

Since the perceived cooling performance is often very subjective, it's difficult to make a reliable assessment without measurements. You can measure the outlet temperature, or, if the system allows, the evaporator temperature. In the latter case, the temperature of the cooled air is measured directly, without any potential mixing of warm air due to automatic functions. This temperature should be clearly in the single-digit range after a few minutes of operation and between 1 and 3 degrees Celsius after 15-20 minutes. For systems with a sensor in the evaporator, you can conveniently read this value during operation on the control panel in its diagnostic mode (see the relevant technical article for more information). I personally check it regularly to identify any weaknesses early on.

A CT unit with poor cooling performance can also be identified by the noticeably high fan speed, as observed here. Additionally, it will then operate with a very high recirculation rate, which can be easily recognized by the musty odor. I have quite a bit of personal experience with my old G III.

Roger wrote:

As long as the system cools well, no maintenance of the refrigerant circuit is required. The potential risk from contamination is greater than the small amount of refrigerant lost. ...

Hi Roger,

"In doing so, you are using the subjective perception of the technically 'educated' average driver as a benchmark for the functionality of a complex system, which also has a tendency to automatically conceal problems:

Quote:

A CT unit with poor cooling performance is also noticeable through strikingly high fan speed, as observed here." In addition, it then runs with a very high recirculation rate, which can be easily recognized by the musty smell.

To whom will it probably be quite noticeable if the system, over the years , gradually operates at higher blower levels on average than "when it was new"?
Especially since, in the cool box, you tend to lose track of how much the system is actually working.
-> due to the temperature difference between the outside and inside.
-> due to the condensation forming on the evaporator, which reduces the cooling performance of the system on a daily basis, depending on how humid it is.

I'd guess, based on my gut feeling, that at least 90% of drivers with air conditioning systems have no real idea when an air conditioning service is necessary... because "my car has to work, but it shouldn't challenge my problem-solving skills, and TÜV and the workshop are responsible for the technical inspections."

Quote:

remarkably high inflation rate

Okay, I can confirm that for the Leon.

But not all CT scanners (or at least not all manufacturers) indicate what is currently being done.
My dad's Vectras (models B and C) are diligently doing their job - without revealing anything. It's only when you manually adjust the air setting that you can see the displayed level and understand what the setting was previously.

I think that we, (except for ulf ), would probably prefer an Airbus-like cockpit here, where we could see on thousands of displays what each component is currently doing... for example, whether the left taillight is currently exchanging cooking recipes with the windshield wiper lever via the CAN bus, or whether they are playing chess...
But the average driver (or the purists ) don't want to know any of that, or don't want to have to deal with it.

So, the best option is probably a 19" TFT screen behind the steering wheel: some people put a bunch of bar graphs on it, while others opt for a huge tachometer, and some just keep it simple.

-- sorry, I've had a bit too much coffee --

m;

ulf wrote:

It's likely that few people will notice that, over the years, the system gradually operates at higher blower speeds on average than it did "when it was new." Especially since, in the cool box, you tend to lose track of how much the system is actually working. -> due to the temperature difference between the outside and inside. -> due to the condensation forming on the evaporator, which reduces the cooling effect of the system "on a daily basis," depending on how humid it is.

I cannot confirm the gradual aspect. In my old system, at least, the performance decline was rapid. So, either you felt perfectly comfortable within a few minutes, or it remained damp, stuffy, and warm. There was no gradual transition. That must be something that even the most technically uninterested average driver can notice.

Even after refilling the system, which unfortunately seems to have a leak in the condenser, the feeling of well-being returned immediately. However, after a few months, the damp and stuffy feeling reappeared. It seems to be behaving in a binary fashion .

I haven't been able to detect any differences in cooling performance at different outdoor temperatures. It seems the system has ample reserves for our sauna-like weather. However, in 98% of cases, the starting condition is a vehicle parked in the shade, which can make a big difference because the large energy storage system doesn't have to cool down the dashboard.

Roger wrote:

There was no smooth transition. The must be something that even the most technically uninterested average driver can notice. Aha... but as an outsider, it's also difficult to guess that the perceived cooling effect has a kind of built-in threshold switch

.

ulf wrote:

Roger wrote: There was no gradual transition. The must be something that even the most technically uninterested average driver can notice. Aha... but as an outsider, it's also difficult to guess that the perceived cooling effect has a kind of built-in threshold switch .

Not really, but if sauce runs down your back, you have to notice it .