Winter Tires: Maximize Performance & Safety

Hello,

The WR tires on our Polo 9N TDI with 160 horsepower are still good for the upcoming winter, but after that, the tread depth indicators will likely show that they are no longer suitable for winter use according to the law, with a remaining tread depth of 4mm or less.
"Edit 18.10.:" translates to "Edited on October 18th:" or "Update: October 18th:".
Incorrect. Currently, according to §36 (2) of the German Road Traffic Regulations (StVZO), a minimum tread depth of 1.6 mm applies to winter tires as well. /Edit

To avoid discarding tires that still have approximately 50% of their original tread depth, it's a good idea to continue using them during the summer months.
However, we probably won't achieve 2.4mm of wear (until they reach the point where they need to be discarded with only 1.6mm remaining) in just one season, especially considering that the factory-built slicks from 2004 are only now, after 7 summers!, nearing the end of their lifespan.

So, what can be done to minimize tire costs? In my opinion, it's obvious: The current set of winter tires will be declared as a summer tire set starting next spring, with the remaining tread depth still usable, and a new set of winter tires will be mounted on the existing summer tire rims. This works perfectly in our case because both sets use the same steel rims.

The future strategy for tire purchases would be: Only when both sets of tires have worn down to below 4mm will the older set be replaced with new winter tires, etc.
Following: The Polo would be driven with all-season tires year-round, but...
Is that legally permissible?
2. We are not extreme drivers who regularly push their tires to the absolute limit of their grip.

What are your thoughts on this, or what does your tire cost management look like?

I used to drive with winter tires for a while. They were Michelin Alpins that were 5 years old, and they were really hard. I drove on them for 3 winters, and because I was too cheap to buy new summer tires, I also used them in the summer... As long as it was dry, everything was fine. But if it was wet and you needed some grip, that's when problems started! You can't always choose those situations; all it takes is someone braking hard, a deer running into the road, or something else happening, and then the tires need to provide grip and they fail! It's really not worth it...

"I usually do it this way: I always make sure to have two good tires in the back, because the front ones wear out faster. Sometimes I need to replace the front tires, but then I move them to the back. The front tires are for steering, so they just need to stay on the road!"

Otherwise, I just bought a set of summer tires from the Passat forum for €160, with 8mm of tread depth. They were only used briefly before I changed cars. New ones would have cost me over €250.

Otherwise, I can only say that it's better to buy a good used item than a bad new one.

You really have to try using winter tires in the summer; I've had both good and bad experiences. If you notice that your car is sliding or losing traction in wet conditions, it's probably best not to use them.

"Of course, there are all-weather tires, but I think it's important that you have good grip on wet roads. Whether it's warm or cold doesn't matter. Good tires can provide that. When the road is dry, you usually don't have any problems unless the tires are really too soft!"

My approach to management is quite different:

Assumptions:
- Tires wear out.
- The tires are incredibly cheap compared to what they achieve.

Therefore, I first choose a product and then look for where I can get it cheaply and conveniently. The location of the retailer can sometimes be crucial, especially if they are located right next to my wife's company.

I want to be able to drive *at any time* and under the best possible conditions.
"I once threw away a set of summer tires for my Golf 3 even though they still had 3.2 mm of tread left, but after I drove through a puddle while overtaking and the tires spun out with only 54 horsepower, it was time to replace them."

Meine Sommerreifen haben nach ca. 35 Tkm nach Ersatz gerufen. So new.

Because:
Even the smallest scratch, professionally removed, costs more than two new Conti 235/45 ZR17 W tires!

Please provide the German text you would like me to translate into English.

Using winter tires in the summer:
The third-generation Golf Estate was already constantly struggling with its weight.
But having a summer vacation with winter tires – because no one could provide the right summer tires that wouldn't damage the rims – was a nightmare. That undefined driving feel and the mess from the tires rubbing against the rims is something I never want to experience again.

Okay, so I used to try saving money, but then I realized it wasn't for me.
As I mentioned, next summer we'll have four almost brand new tires with a tread depth of 8mm. Currently, I have two Uniroyal WR tires with a tread depth of 6-7mm that will be put on the front. The Semperit tires with 4mm tread depth will be removed from the rear and replaced with two new Uniroyal tires.

Kenny7 wrote:

I used to drive with winter tires for a while... I had Michelin Alpin tires that were 5 years old, and they were really hard. I drove on them for 3 winters, and because I was too cheap to buy new summer tires, I also used them in the summer... As long as it was dry, everything was fine. But if it was wet and you needed some grip!, . . .

I can say the same thing about the original factory-installed summer tires on my Polo (Bridgestone Firehawk 700), which are now worn down to almost 1.6 mm: For example, when overtaking on a wet country road, as usual with full throttle in 3rd gear, they spin out even with minimal ruts.
Since my partner now has the Polo and I only drove it occasionally on that day, I was quite surprised at first.

"It seems to me that winter tires should be designed with a focus on performance in wet conditions rather than dry conditions, since dry roads are more of an exception than the rule during the winter tire season..."

Der freundliche Herr Ramsauer ist derzeit dabei, an den gesetzlichen Rahmenbedingungen feilen. Nach dem, was im Entwurf zu lesen war, koennten die Fahrer von Ganzjahresreifen schon bald wieder einkaufen gehen und ihre teuren Ganzjahresreifen allenfalls noch legal im Sommer aufbrauchen. Durch die Mitarbeit einiger Prueforganisationen, des ADAC und Vertretern der Reifenindustrie ist durchaus zu erwarten, dass die Anforderung kuenftig heissen wird: Winterreifen ist nur, was auch als Winterreifen zertifiziert ist. Dafuer ist in einem nationalen Alleingang ein Pruefzeichen mit einer Zulassungsnummer in Vorbereitung, das einen Winterreifen erst zum zugelassenen Winterreifen macht, wenn er diese Kennzeichnung traegt. Man will naemlich ausdruecklich die Tuer fuer Importreifen zuschlagen, die zwar als M+S beschriftet sind, moeglicherweise auch ein Schneeflockensymbol haben - vom Profilaufbau und von der Gummimischung her aber eher Sommerreifen sind. Dafuer hat man sich in Bruessel rueckversichert und bekam wohl auch Zustimmung. Andere Laender haben bereits eine Winterreifenpflicht und einige schreiben sogar eine nationale Zertifizierung vor. Ich weiss aus Finnland, dass es dort eine Liste mit geprueften Reifenmodellen gibt, in der man nachschauen kann, ob der dort gepruefte Reifen auch in Finnland gefahren werden darf. A pleasant side effect is an independent series of tests with official test reports that can be used when purchasing tires.

What probably won't happen is a fixed period during which vehicles will be required to have approved winter tires fitted. On the one hand, tire dealers and automotive trade associations are protesting, but on the other hand, the weather varies so much from year to year that it's impossible to work with fixed timeframes.

I have previously chosen my winter tires based on a combination of grip and low rolling resistance. This often led me to niche products that didn't perform as well in snow tests. Furthermore, I was always able to find my desired tires at a mid-range price – I looked for what others weren't necessarily looking for! I usually drove my winter tires until they were completely worn out, but I also knew that they were gradually reaching their limit. This worked reasonably well because 95% of my driving is on the highway, and I don't live in a mountainous region. Consequently, I could use my summer tires for a very long time before changing them. Sometimes I would wait until early December, but at least until mid-November. Switching back to winter tires was often necessary as early as March, but no later than April.

It was mainly because my winter tires were always the narrowest possible size, and driving on my current car, as well as the one before it, with those felt like walking on eggshells. For the upcoming winter, I've chosen the widest standard tire size available, and I'm going from 195-size summer tires down to just 185-size winter tires. Let's see if that makes a difference. I was able to sell my previously used 175-size winter tires, which were only two years old.


To get to the initial question: Ideally, summer and winter tires should be mounted on the same steel or aluminum rims and have the same dimensions. While it would disappoint me not to be able to mount the nicer and wider summer tires again in the spring, it is indeed more economical. With the next car, there will only be steel rims anyway...

Depending on the mileage, this could mean that after about 3 or 4 winters, the tires would be worn out in the summer. This assumes that they are largely worn down by then – otherwise, they might expire before the end of a summer season! I once experienced something similar with tires on an Opel Kadett, which I also wanted to use throughout the summer due to lack of money until they reached the wear limit. However, they just barely made it! From about 4 mm, only about 1.5 mm remained after about 5 months and not even many kilometers driven. Otherwise, they didn't feel much worse on the Kadett than proper summer tires. Perhaps it was also due to the generally unstable driving feel with 175/70 R13 tires...

"However, all-season tires have many sipes (small grooves), which help maintain grip on snow. Summer tires, on the other hand, have large longitudinal grooves to channel away a lot of water... I think all-season tires simply lack that."
V-profile winter tires might be worth a try.

These were the Nexen Winguard tires that I have driven so far: Link to the image

And the Nokian WR-G2, which I have now decided on, can probably do that quite well too: Link to image

And here is a product description for it.

dieselmartin wrote:

My approach to management is quite different: Assumptions: - Tires wear out. - The tires are incredibly cheap compared to what they achieve.

dieselmartin wrote:

- Tires are wear items. - The tires are incredibly cheap compared to what they achieve. Bitte gib mir den deutschen Text, den du übersetzt haben möchtest. I want to be able to drive _at any time_ and under the best possible conditions . . .

If you were to do that consistently, you would have to dispose of all tires as soon as they lose, say, 1 mm of tread: because

1. The performance loss is linked to the continuous process of profile degradation.

2. Even during the summer break, tires harden , and therefore, just one winter after being purchased new, they are already worse than when brand new, even if no millimeter of tread has been worn down http://www.autobild.de/artikel/elf-reifen-der-dimension-205_55-r-16-v_40675.html. Do you dispose of them because of this?

As WR compounds cure, they approach the properties of SR compounds, which are inherently harder mixtures. This means that the problem of the "slimy" behavior of WR in summer will tend to decrease as the WR ages.

Overall, based on my impression of various tests, the performance of tires seems to vary widely, such that a "good" all-season tire in the summer may not necessarily be significantly worse than an average summer tire.

Here's a random quote from

Quote:

.

During full braking from a speed of 100 km/h, there is already a small car length difference between the best performer (Bridgestone) and the last place finisher (Vredestein). On wet pavement, the difference is even more significant: with Pirelli P7 tires, the test vehicle stops after 47 meters, while with Goodyear tires, it needs six meters more. http://www.oeamtc.at/netautor/download/document/auto/reifentest_bremswegvergleich.pdf
Then take a look here:

} Worn tires have a braking distance that is only 5-6 meters longer than a new tire, even when traveling at 80 or 100 km/h.


Our Polo tires are made by Goodyear, so they're not some cheap Korean brand that poses a safety risk even when new...

Among the budget tire brands, the more reputable Korean tires are actually quite usable options. What's more concerning is what's labeled as winter tires and imported from China. I've personally seen pure summer tires with the same rubber compound and tread pattern being marked as M+S and winter tires. I know myself that "M+S" alone doesn't mean anything...

It should be added that many of these tests are commissioned by tire manufacturers, dealers, or other "interested parties." This often involves cross-subsidization, and companies readily offer so-called "journalists" free participation, including accommodation, driver training, etc. The subsequent marketing of the test results obtained is certainly a worthwhile investment...

Worn tires have a braking distance that is only 5-6 meters longer at speeds of 80 or 100 km/h compared to a new tire!

'Only' is of course relative. While the SR vehicle is already stopped, the WR vehicle collides with the obstacle at over 30 km/h.
I find the results of the all-season tires shocking.

Regards,
t.klebi

t.klebi wrote:

ulf wrote: Worn tires have a braking distance that is only 5-6 meters longer at speeds of 80 or 100 km/h compared to a new tire( ). "Only" is of course relative. While the SR vehicle is already stopped, the WR vehicle collides with the obstacle at over 30 km/h.

According to Autoblöd, such differences also exist between new SR models:

Quote:

The test car, equipped with Pirelli P7 tires, stops after 47 meters; with Goodyear tires, it needs six more meters.

In other words: A worn-out WR brakes similarly "well" to a new(!) SR with non-optimal braking characteristics! (...assuming the test conditions of both sources are sufficiently similar).
In the typical summer rear-end collision scenario, no one would likely suspect that poorly performing new tires were the cause - but woe betide the driver who had worn winter tires mounted .

The all-season tire is practically facing its end. The planned "mandatory winter tires" regulation will likely not recognize them as winter tires, and even if they were considered summer tires, they have significant disadvantages compared to "real" summer tires.

Hutfahrer wrote:

The planned "winter tire requirement". . .

Here are a few details about it:
http://www.warum-winterreifen.de/winterreifenpflicht/rechtslage-winterreifenpflicht/index.php
It's interesting that nowhere does it mention the legally required minimum profile depth of 1.6 mm, for which there has previously been no explicit exception for "winter tires" or studded tires.

Quote:

What probably won't happen is a fixed period during which vehicles must have approved (!) winter tires. On the one hand, tire dealers and automotive trade associations are protesting, but on the other hand, the weather varies so much from year to year that it's impossible to work with fixed time periods.

If there aren't fixed time periods, how else can we adequately define the conditions for mandatory winter tires?

As soon as the roads are covered with snow, slush, or ice, the required speed can change every meter and minute. This is because when a snowplow has just passed through, the slippery surface (initially in patches!) may transform into a layer of salt water, whose hazard level then corresponds to that of wet summer roads.

Or depending on the time of day, when it's still freezing in the morning but above 0°C by midday?

Or depending on the weather forecast consulted, which either generally warns of slippery conditions or only mentions it for "higher elevations"?

I suppose we will adopt regulations similar to those in Austria: with a fixed calendar period for winter tires, which must have a minimum tread depth of 4 mm and specific markings (M&S, etc.). This is easy to understand and monitor, and therefore should no longer conflict with our German principle of legal certainty.

I suppose we will adopt regulations similar to those in Austria: with a fixed calendar period for winter tires, which must have at least 4 mm of tread and certain markings (M&S, etc.): this is easy to understand and monitor, and should therefore no longer conflict with our German principle of clarity.

The Austrian regulations are very simple and easy to monitor. However, the conditions in Austria cannot be compared to those in Germany. Austria is predominantly mountainous and much smaller than Germany.

In Germany, there are areas where it almost never snows. Why isn't the winter tire requirement based on the actual presence of snow and ice on the roads? Anyone caught driving on snow or ice without sufficiently treaded winter tires will be fined.

Regards,
t.klebi

Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

'PS:'
I switched to my winter tires yesterday. Starting on Thursday, snow is forecast in our area.