Passat 1.9 TDI (AVF), Compatibility of Pump Nozzle Injectors

Good evening, everyone!

While this topic is part of a larger problem, I'll create a separate post specifically addressing it.

My question:

During several (unsuccessful) attempts to identify and resolve idle vibrations or an imbalance at idle in my vehicle (see...), Signature!) and, among other things, two of the factory-installed pump-nozzle elements (PDE) were recently replaced with new/different ones.

The result looks like this now:

Cylinders 3 and 4:
038130073BA, BOSCH part number: 0414720216, BOSCH type designation: PDE-P1.1/80/520S216, Production date: February 20th or 24th, 2003 (factory-installed PDE).

Cylinder 2:
038130079FX, BOSCH part number: 0986441560, BOSCH type designation: PDE-P1.1/80/520S216, production date: 04/20/2016 (Installed in early April of this year in place of a supposedly defective PDE, paid for by me).

Cylinder 1:
038130073 (actually, nothing else, i.e., no letters...), BOSCH part number: 0414720002/3, BOSCH type designation: unknown, production date: 09/25/2004 (end of April, the workshop installed a PDE in cylinder 1 at their expense as part of the repair, because the idle speed control was still not working properly, and previously the PDE in cylinder 1 had been identified as defective, but then the one in cylinder 2 was replaced....)

As far as I can tell, the injectors installed in cylinders 2, 3, and 4 should be compatible.
Okay, putting aside the fact that, based on the part number, its appearance, and its age, I don't believe it's a new part, how about the one in cylinder 1?
How would an incompatibility manifest itself?

Best regards and thank you for your support.

Marc.

P.S. If of interest: Engine control unit: Part number: 038 906 019 GQ, Component: 1.9L R4 EDC G200SG 1582.

mothe071171 wrote:

BOSCH part number: 0414720002/3, BOSCH type designation: unknown...

Yes, that number has already been replaced 3 times. Currently, the part number is 0414720007, which corresponds to PDE-P1/80/465S7.

Good morning, Michael!

The different type designation (of the current nozzle) suggests that the nozzle is incompatible with the part number 038130073?

Regarding BOSCH part numbers (e.g., 0 414 720 007), do the last three digits increment when a new variant replaces the old one?

Regards,

Marc.

Of course, they are incompatible; they are different generations and have different nozzle sizes.

Well, that's nice!

Then, all that remains for me is to give the workshop another opportunity to rectify the issue (see my other post for details).
I suspect that during the initial repair, some generic PDE (presumably a power distribution element) was simply purchased and installed at the company's own expense.

Thank you for the information!

Regards,

Marc.

The question is only whether the car actually gets better because of it (there)....
Let's continue the discussion in the other thread.
hg
Herbert.

Hello, Hubert!

I agree with you - but if I don't want to pay for the installation of a compatible PDE myself, then I don't really have any other options for now.

Since the company owner has repeatedly stated that he wants "nothing more to do" with the matter after the initial repair, I will offer him the option to waive his right to further repair attempts.

Given the circumstances, and because I cannot involve the arbitration board since he is not a member of the automotive trade association, it will likely end up in court.

Because the workshop claims to be different from others (because they are better), and if there hadn't been various inconsistencies, I wouldn't have bothered to take a look under the valve cover to see what was actually being done – or maybe I would have.

Unfortunately, I have to "deal with" that again. Actually, I would also really appreciate some peace and quiet – or, rather, a professional, accurate, and complete repair (after having already spent almost 4500€ on repairs, some of which may have even been unnecessary, but none of which identified or fixed the problem).

Yes, let's continue the discussion in the other thread - my specific question has already been answered.

Thank you very much!

Regards,

Marc.

...Herbert, not Hubert.
So, it wasn't even a VAG company.

hg

Herbert

Yes, Herbert, forgive me... I just noticed the same thing when I was recalling it.

No, the last two repairs I mentioned in my other thread (regarding the replacement of the PDE) were done by an independent workshop here in Bonn, which was opened a few years ago by a former employee of a well-known VAG dealership in the area.

"Since the VAG workshops I had previously visited were also overwhelmed with the fault analysis during the previous repairs/troubleshooting (and because..." Even though things weren't always perfect, and that's not really the point here, I wanted to give a local, independent workshop a chance, especially considering the age of my vehicle.

Actually, I didn't really want to go into that much detail. However, I have to admit that a VAG workshop would very likely have installed a compatible PDE (pump-injector). I've even had to discuss with a VAG workshop here in Bonn whether my Passat has a dual-mass flywheel or not. I'm not entirely sure about that either...
One really shouldn't expect a workshop, out of frustration and to keep the cost of repairs down, to try to get rid of a customer by intentionally - or at least carelessly - installing an old, used, or counterfeit part. The PDE (common rail pressure sensor) that I paid for is supposed to be new and compatible, so it's not as if the correct part number wasn't known. But that wasn't really the point.

Regards,

Marc.

Good evening, everyone!

In the meantime, I don't really have any news - the workshop simply ignored the deadline I gave them for the repairs.

I have two questions:

1. Can an "incorrect" PDE cause harm?
2. Does an "incorrect" PDE invalidate the operating permit (ABE)?

Greetings.

Marc.

mothe071171 wrote:

1. Can an "incorrect" PDE cause harm? 2. Does an "incorrect" PDE potentially invalidate the ABE?

1. No one can give you a definitive "yes" or "no" answer.
2. It is reasonable to expect a change in exhaust emissions, so the answer is definitely yes.

Hello from the Baltic Sea, friends!

Forget about that. The first cylinder has an AJM injector. First, the injector itself is incorrect, and second, and most importantly, it's the wrong generation. It's a 1.3 version. The other three injectors are 1.1 versions, and they are not electrically compatible. "It runs like a tractor." The identification number is PDE-P1.3/80/465S35.

Could you please send me the part number for that model? I'd like to see what components are required. But don't worry, I'm on vacation.

Good morning!

I don't have that information readily available at the moment.

Inside were P1.1/80/520S216. According to BOSCH and VW, these are also included.

I just spoke with the repair shop: They said the injectors are not new, but refurbished. Whatever happens, it doesn't matter...

I can only be amazed...

Regards,

Marc.

Quote:

I just spoke with the repair shop: They said the injectors are not new, but refurbished. Whatever happens, it doesn't matter...

What a load of crap!

Meanwhile, the user has sent the FIN (Financial Identification Number). Rein must:
038 130 079 BA (VAG part number)
038 130 079 FX (Part number for VAG replacement or refurbished unit).
alias Bosch:
The Bosch new part number has been discontinued.
0 986 441 560 (Part number for Bosch replacement or refurbished units).
Identifier: PDE-P1.1/80/520 S 216.

Remember this! They are not the same. They only look physically similar. In particular, the notes "PDE 1.1" and "PDE 1.3" indicate a difference in the generation of PD elements. They are not electrically compatible.

And here's another little thought experiment:
"Injectors with different nozzles were installed here. Specifically, nozzles with sizes 465 and 520 are being referred to. These nozzles differ in terms of atomization and flow rate. If you install such different nozzles in the same engine, it will not have a positive effect on its smooth operation." Or?
That was only theoretical. It's not running smoothly for this reason: the nozzle is a 1.3 size, which isn't compatible with the MSG in this case.

Okay, and one more thing: You can't endlessly remove and install injectors during rework. The M6 threads in the cylinder head won't last forever. Only use injectors that have the correct part number, and avoid buying used ones (I've had mostly bad experiences with them).
Don't use those old expansion bolts again. If you want peace and quiet.
And have someone who knows what they're doing do it. They must also be properly aligned, and the ball screw must be adjusted four times with equal settings.

@Rainer:
Yes, I know... However, I still asked several PDE (Power Drive Unit) technicians (even though I felt ridiculous doing so): A PDE with the wrong part number cannot be converted into a different type, even through a complete overhaul. In other words, you can't "convert" one type of PDE into another. It was obvious.

@Steffen W:
Thank you for all your effort. I understand everything now, after all the research. The workshop owner, however, still doesn't. He says I should be happy that my car is running...

One more question, just out of curiosity: Could the warranty on the repair potentially be voided because I removed the valve cover to see what the workshop was doing and to take pictures?

Happy Monday!

Regards,

Marc.