Relay Recall: Important Information for Drivers

Good morning!

I've noticed the following:
Every week, it happens again: someone (usually a newcomer) in this forum asks about a mysterious error.
The engine is simply cutting out while driving!
The solution quickly arrives: Relay 109...

I had the same problem: it would stall once, then nothing for half a year, and then about 1-2 times a month, etc. Once, it stalled while I was overtaking on the highway.
It's unimaginable what would happen if something like that occurred on a highway while someone was overtaking a 40-ton truck... (there would be fatalities).

Okay, here's my question: 1)
Why has there never been a recall regarding this issue? (For a car manufacturer, there is nothing worse than a situation where the vehicle loses control (posing an acute danger to the vehicle occupants and other road users).
Every year, there are many product recalls, but most of them (as far as I've followed) haven't had nearly the same level of potential danger as the '109' incident.

'I always thought that the faulty 109 injectors were only installed in the Lopez TDI models and not in the Golf 4 anymore?!'

From a legal perspective (one of my areas of study is product liability), this is quite concerning...

Regards,

Capernaum.

Hmm, which is cheaper: simply replacing the relay at the workshop, or initiating a recall campaign?

In my Golf4 ALH, this old, cheap, and generic relay (part number 109) was also installed, and it never failed me during the entire 160,000 km I drove. So, it couldn't have been that bad, or it must be quite common.
And the last Relais109 issue here was probably more of a tuning box error....http://www.cheesebuerger.de/smilies/schilder/39.gif

Es gibt 2 mögliche Philosophien. Eine davon ist zu seinen Fehlern zu stehen. VW wie auch BMW gehören zu den Verfechter der anderen. LSure, here's the translation:

'eider.'

'In my Passat 35i, relay 109 was also damaged. The workshop was unable to find the fault because they claimed I was imagining things and that the error was not reproducible.'
*irony on* How is VW supposed to know there are problems if the experts, meaning the workshops, don't even know what the problem is, let alone find it! *irony off*

Quote:

There are 2 possible philosophies. One of them is to own up to one's mistakes. VW and BMW, among others, are proponents of the other

.



Even better: in my case, the supposedly "good" 109 version started malfunctioning after about 30,000 km. I experienced around 10 instances of it failing in the winter, resulting in unsuccessful visits to the workshop. Eventually, the relay was replaced under warranty at the Audi workshop.
Now, guess which version of the 109 was installed... because around 60,000 km, the intermittent issues started again .
So far (with the 3rd relay), at 163,000 km, it's finally quiet.

Best regards, Rainer.

@julian: The last 'problem' from the 109 series only made me think of this idea while I was in the shower...
Yes, you're right, but then it would have been smarter to simply install a reliable part during each inspection for every affected vehicle. However, that didn't happen...
When I was earlier dealing with my colleagues at Bosch regarding this matter (about 1 year ago), he looked at it again and just mumbled '109 '.

i@m3_bremse: The ID.9 is a real mass-market phenomenon, and I can hardly imagine that VW/Audi knows nothing about it...


greetings

Audi even has a work instruction specifying that the "problematic" 109 version should be scrapped. However, that didn't stop the workshop from installing it in my car... nice.
Therefore, I cannot understand the often-described risk of engine failures or emergency shutdowns when using tuning boxes, especially during overtaking maneuvers.
Overall, I experienced at least 30 interruptions, ranging from a few seconds to 30 minutes, due to the issue with the 109.
You tend to develop a 'safer' driving style when you always have to anticipate that the power might suddenly cut out; it's somehow also an advantage .

@kapernaum

I am very familiar with this problem. That's why I had previously set the irony mode for that statement!

But on the other hand, what can you say against VAG? Perhaps VAG is aware of this, as there apparently are work instructions. On the other hand, there's a 'highly qualified service' that probably doesn't care about anything except making money!

I was also affected.

The car broke down in the middle of the city, at a busy intersection . It was fun; everyone looked so dumb. If you love your Passat, you push!
It was, of course, still Saturday, which was the only day that ATU was open. They, of course, didn't have it. Well, on Monday, I went to a different store, and they had it in stock (in the new version).

@DocSnydor:

Hehe, I can top that!
A vehicle with its engine revving stood at a large intersection in Bielefeld, blocking two lanes, and everyone was honking. Then, two trams arrived.
I then rolled towards the traffic island with the organ starter engaged and in first gear, with the clutch slipping.

However, you tend to adopt a 'safer' driving style when you always have to anticipate that the power might suddenly cut out, which is somehow also an advantage.



You can't really trust a car with a broken 109 .
You get used to a very safe and anticipatory driving style... but in the end, it became quite bad; there were more and more malfunctions, and while driving, I was always looking for alternative routes or places to pull over in case I needed to slow down or stop .

But seriously: If I, as an 'uninformed' driver, am driving and suddenly almost all the electronics fail, including the engine shutting off, along with a 'non-functional' brake and steering system because the power steering and brake assist are no longer working, an accident can happen very quickly... I think many people don't know how their vehicle behaves when the engine is off... not to mention the scenario on country roads.
For my part, I find this more than worrying; it's a disgrace (and rather proof of utterly unscrupulous behavior) on the part of VAG.

It would be interesting to know how many accidents or near-misses have occurred due to this issue.

greetings

Capernaum.

Hello forum.

I find the question posed by kapernaum to be quite interesting.

Regarding the scenario of driving on country roads, I can only share my personal experiences.
I was recently driving on a busy country road in Poland with my wife and our 3-year-old son, Maximilian. The issue occurred right after the border / on the transit road to Warsaw. This was the first time it happened, as I didn't have my G3 for very long at the time, and I wasn't familiar with the R 109 problem.
While overtaking a 40-ton truck, right at the level of the truck's cab, the engine cut out. I only looked at the truck driver, and he looked at me, because he had no idea what was happening to me. Just ahead of me was a whole column of 40-ton trucks, all heading in my direction. I slammed on the brakes and just managed to swerve behind a large truck ("Brumi"). I narrowly avoided an accident. It was a terrifying moment in my life. Luckily, no one was trying to overtake me either, because that would have been the end of it.

I reported this incident to Volkswagen AG in Wolfsburg on November 26, 2000.
As a response on December 12, 2000, Volkswagen AG expressed regret and sent me a gift.
a pen and pencil set.
I was extremely angry and too lazy to return this SET. I had already written to them to let them know and hopefully prevent this from happening to other people.

I've often wondered: How many people have died due to R109?

Where are the federal agencies?
Who has the responsibility for monitoring?

I wish you all a safe journey.

Hi Jarek,

A vehicle with a loud, sputtering engine was blocking a major intersection in Bielefeld, blocking two lanes, and everyone was honking their horns. Then, two trams arrived.
I then rolled towards the traffic island with the organ starter engaged and in first gear, with the clutch slipping.


*lol* I've seen something like this somewhere before, but it was always courtyards or other parking areas. That stupid thing never came on while I was driving. But back then, I wasn't driving either. It was funny, though, when my dad would always crank the starter.

Best regards, WarLord.

Good morning!

Jarek wrote:
Where are the federal authorities?
Who has the responsibility for monitoring?



The responsibility for monitoring clearly lies with VAG!!
When a company launches a product, that's not the end of the story!
The company has a so-called 'product monitoring obligation,' which means that the company must continue to monitor its products on the market and take all necessary steps to ensure that they do not pose a risk to consumers. If any issues are discovered, the consumer must be informed, or a product recall must be initiated immediately.

The requirements for product monitoring are very strict and have been continuously tightened in recent years by rulings from the Federal Court of Justice.

For a medium-sized company, even a small mistake can mean the end.
The claims for damages are enormous, with potential liabilities of up to €160 million under the product liability law alone.
@Jarek: Congratulations on your new pen.....

Greetings from Capernaum.

P.S. All legal information is, of course, provided without any guarantee of accuracy and is for informational purposes only.

As much as I like my A3, it's painful to acknowledge that VW and Audi have tried to cover up their own serious mistakes at the expense of human lives.
The situation described above, involving the truck overtaking, is similar to something that happened before.
It happened on a highway interchange. I managed to swerve into a ditch at the last moment to avoid a collision.
After that, the new relay was installed for me, including the labor, at a cost of 55 euros.
The logic is straightforward: Instead of an expensive recall, make money.

YUCK, DEVIL, VW, AUDI!!! That's all I can say.

Tagessuppe wrote:

As much as I like my A3, it is painful to acknowledge that VW-AUDI has tried to cover up their own significant mistakes at the expense of people's lives. ... BLASPHEMY, DEVIL, VW, AUDI!!! That's all I can say.

Before I start criticizing a manufacturer so loudly, I'd like to take a closer look at the situation.

There are cars that catch fire while being refueled, and the manufacturer only takes action two years after the issue becomes known.
Or another one where the airbags deployed when hitting a pothole. Again, nothing was done for a year (despite the significant safety risk).
Some people install tires that are not suitable for the vehicle's load capacity.
The next batch of tires from a certain manufacturer burst after only a few years of use. While the tire manufacturer offers a goodwill arrangement in such cases, there is no recall initiated by the KBA (German Federal Motor Transport Authority).

The list of these "minor" defects is so long that there isn't enough space here in the forum; the problem with the relay in VW cars is just a small one in comparison. The KBA (German Federal Motor Transport Authority) decides on the urgency of the problem and, consequently, whether a recall is necessary. If the manufacturer can credibly assure, based on failure statistics, that it is not a mass problem, they can avoid a recall. However, I would only trust statistics that I myself have manipulated. All manufacturers are the same in this regard.

Enjoy your meal!

kapernaum wrote:

i@m3_bremse: The 109 is a real mass phenomenon.


It's also possible that this error is being highlighted by this technical forum, which might give the impression that this defect occurs very frequently!
But even the depictions of Jarek and Tagessuppe alone demonstrate a very high level of potential danger...


Rainer K. wrote:

There's even a work instruction at Audi regarding what should happen to the 'problematic' 109 version: it should be scrapped. However, that didn't stop the workshop from installing it for me... nice.


That's essentially an admission that the problem within the corporation must be sufficiently well-known.
This behavior is no longer mere negligence, but is almost bordering on intent .

I don't want to overstate the importance of this, or stir up any emotions here (the idea just came to me while I was in the shower ), but I do think there's a certain level of significance to it!

@Bertil: What exactly is the KBA?
The threshold where companies are actively involved seems, unfortunately, to be very high in practice...
Here we see once again how theory and practice diverge.

Perhaps we should start a survey here to find out who is affected by this, and next month (when I have more time), I will request a statement from VAG on this issue.

Regards,

Capernaum.

P.S.
*turning on black humor mode*
As a postscript, here's something ironic about this topic (from the movie Fight Club).
The main character works in America for a large automotive company as a recall coordinator, and on the plane, he chats with a stranger about his daily job.

'My job is to determine whether a recall should be initiated. We take the number of vehicles affected = A; the estimated defect rate = B; the amount of the average out-of-court settlement = C; A * B * C = X; If X is less than the cost of a recall, then no recall will be conducted.'

*black humor mode off*

kapernaum wrote:

@Bertil: what is the KBA?

... If you have a driver's license, you should know who the KBA is!

http://www.kba.de

The KBA is the Kraftfahrtbundesamt (Federal Motor Vehicle Office) in Flensburg. It is the guardian of your and everyone else's driver's licenses and the points associated with them.
As someone who is aspiring to become a lawyer, you will inevitably come into contact with this topic sooner or later.

Other "side activities":
Guardian and custodian of our vehicle registrations and vehicle titles.
...

And also, I am the master and guardian of the car manufacturers and all the nonsense they keep producing.

Okay, please provide the German text you want me to translate. I will provide only the English translation.
The Central Registry department operates on four tracks. Its core task is the registration and provision of information regarding everything that "moves." A very important aspect is the provision of information across Europe.

Motor vehicles - Central vehicle register.
Individuals - Traffic Central Register.
Driver's licenses - Central Driver's License Register.
Digital EC control device - Central control device card registry.
ZEVIS - Central Traffic Information System.
EUCARIS - European Car and Driving Licence Information System.