Normalen Wastegate-Turbo mit MSG ansteuern ... | Posts 16+

Hole diameter AHH (probably) 0.158mm

I'm returning to the original topic

If I were to examine this turbo precisely now:



Then, it should be controllable by a 1Z/AHU engine control unit?

A comparison between the 1Z/AHU turbo and the JX-turbo results in turbos that are essentially the same.
Both are simple wastegate turbochargers with a pressure sensor on the wastegate.
The regulation in TDI is "set", meaning that the TDI engine control unit only modulates the pressure to the wastegate pressure sensor by opening a valve. This regulates the maximum achievable boost pressure.
Therefore, the TDI control system is simply an electronically controlled steam wheel.
The Wategate 1Z/AHU turbo is designed such that only with the internal control system can a boost pressure of 0.6 bar be achieved. The engine control unit only influences the boost pressure between 0.6 and 0.95 bar (maximum system pressure). The JX-Turbo, for example, is very close to 0.7 bar.

Also, the size of the compressors and turbines is also almost identical to the JX-turbo.

What could be against installing a JX turbo on a 1Z engine and connecting the turbo control (the N75) to the wastegate line of the JX turbo?
For example, you disconnect the line and insert a T-piece. This T-piece is to be connected with the N75.

If I can't get my VTG to work anymore, I'll try

Greetings
Jens

Quote:

What could be against installing a JX turbo on a 1Z engine and connecting the turbo control (the N75) to the wastegate line of the JX turbo? For example, you disconnect the line and insert a T-piece. This T-shirt is to be used with the N75.

Basically, you can do it, but the characteristics of the shared living spaces and the containers will be different (even though the JX with 0.7 bar is close).

How well this works with the superimposed MSG regulation can only be definitively determined through testing.

Quote:

The Wategate 1Z/AHU turbo is designed to achieve a 0.6 bar boost pressure without any control system.

Just for clarification, living alone is also a rule. It would only be considered "unregulated" when you cut the hose to the can.

With MSG, it's a cascade control system, where the inner control loop is pneumatic/mechanical and the outer (MSG) loop is electronic.

[quote="Malte1408"]

Quote:

Basically, you can do it, but the characteristics of the shared living spaces and the containers will be different (even though the JX with 0.7 bar is close). How well this works with the superimposed MSG regulation can only be definitively determined through testing.

I think so too. The JX-Turbo will probably be a bit slower, as it still uses the old, heavy design. But this is all just speculation, I now know that experimenting will definitely be worthwhile.
Instead of the JX turbo, I will be using the SB turbo, which differs from the JX turbo only in the connection flange and through its water cooling.
Should this work, it would be a huge step forward towards safe TDI operation in the T3 Syncro.
The VTG loader, in particular, does not like off-road driving, and neither does the 1Z loader. Water cooling from the storage case brings peace

Greetings
Jens

Quote:

The JX-Turbo will probably be a bit slower,

That would be great if it works out, but it could also happen that the regulation fluctuates and you can't drive at all.

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If this works, it would be a huge step forward for me towards a more reliable TDI in my T3 syncro.

Um, don't you have an AFN in there? You're aware that for either WG or VTG control, you'll need a different MSG = possibly a motor? Sorry for the question, just to be sure.

Malte1408 wrote:

The JX-Turbo will probably be a bit slower, Quote: Um, don't you have an AFN in there? You're aware that for either WG or VTG control, you'll need a different MSG = possibly a motor? Sorry for the question, just to be sure.

Yes, I am fully aware of this. I will be using an MSG with MSA15.
The vacuum hose connections also need to be changed
Since the engine cable harness is supposedly the same for late 1Z and AFN models, the swap should be relatively straightforward. Certainly much easier than the other way around (VTG at 1Z).
The ESP is identical. The AGR and mass airflow sensor are no longer present.
If the turbo unexpectedly starts to surge, the MSG system will be completely disabled, and the maximum boost pressure of 1.0 bar will be set manually using the throttle. I hereby waive the cascading rule

Greetings
Jens

Quote:

In the unlikely event that the turbocharger unexpectedly becomes unstable, the MSG system will be completely disabled, and the throttle will be used to set a maximum boost pressure of 1.0 bar. I hereby waive the Kaskaden-Regelung icon_razz.gif

Then, it's probably easier somewhere in the desert, according to my understanding.

I'm at it again

I would like to modify the connection diagram of the conventional Wastegate turbo compared to the standard 1Z.

On the 1Z side, the pressure line runs from the compressor side to the pressure vessel via the N75 electrical switching valve.
The N75 also has a line to the air filter, which then reduces the pressure according to the pedal ratio.

The conventional K14 has, of course, a direct line from the compressor to the pressure vessel. To realize the connection scheme 1Z, I would have to remove this line and connect both connections (compressor and pressure vessel) to the N75. I don't like that, I would prefer to do it differently, namely by leaving the existing pipe in place but adding a new connection (I would use a longer pipe and install an additional fitting).



This branch then goes to the N75.
Connecting to the N75 would involve closing off a specific connection.

See image:


I mean that, in the end result, there is no difference compared to the connection diagram of 1Z, except that I am saving a wire.

Would anyone like to comment on this?

Greetings
Jens

Hmm, you've now changed the functional principle, and I can't say if it's still working correctly.

Normally:

N75 AUS: Charging pressure on pressure vessel switched off, atmosphere isolated.
N75 EIN : Charging pressure closed, atmosphere switched to pressure vessel

What you have done is a "switchable opening" in the waste gate control valve.

so

N75 OFF: Charging pressure on pressure vessel
N75 ONE: Reduced boost pressure due to failure in the pressure vessel.

Malte1408 wrote:

Hmm, you have now changed the functional principle, What you have done is a "switchable opening" in the waste gate control valve.

N75 OFF: Charging pressure on pressure vessel
N75 EIN: Increased pressure due to air escaping from the air filter housing

Hi Malte,
That's how I see it.

However, I don't see that I have changed the underlying principle of operation.
Even in the original version, the N75 creates a "gap" in the wastegate control line.

This happens internally in the N75, but in exactly the same way. Originally, "T-piece in the wastegate control valve" and "valve to the air filter box" were a combined component, and I have divided this into two parts, without changing the principle. Since the "T-piece" is not needed, there remains a connection at the N75 free.

I examined the N75 for wastegate turbos in more detail at Pierburg, and it essentially functions like a "controlled valve" for the wastegate.

Greetings
Jens

Malte1408 wrote:

Normally: N75 AUS: Charging pressure on pressure vessel switched off, atmosphere isolated. N75 EIN : Charging pressure closed, atmosphere switched to pressure vessel

So, that's how I understand the original principle, but I don't quite get it.

Original: Eine Leitung verläuft von der Verdichterseite des Turbos über das N75 zur Druckdose.
This line is at
N75 AUS
always fully open.

At
N75 YES
A portion of the print will be redirected into the intake duct (air filter housing) via the main line.

The pressure in the fuel tank decreases => Wastegate opens later => Boost pressure increases.

Here you can find more information:
http://www.msi-motor-service.com/ximages/pg_si_0089_de_web.pdf

http://www.msi-motor-service.com/ximages/pg_si_0051_de_web.pdf

Jens

Quote:

N75 MORE: Increased boost due to air filter housing blow-off

I only discussed the effects of the turbocharger within the scope of the example, not its impact on the engine's boost pressure.

Quote:

At N75 YES A portion of the print will be redirected into the intake duct (air filter housing) via the main line. The fuel tank receives less pressure => Wastegate opens later => Boost pressure increases.

No, it's a 3/2-way valve. If it were functioning as you understand the original principle, it would mean that when N75 is switched on, it would isolate the pressure cylinder, but the pressure within it would still be maintained, and the WG would not close at all, unless there is a leak or the temperature drops.

The N75 either switches on the LD or activates the atmosphere for the container. By "atmosphere," I mean the area around the luffa (sail) after it has been pulled in.

EDIT:

By the way, is this also mentioned in your PDF?

Quote:

The EUV operates as a throttle valve. It is coming from the engine control unit. with specific control conditions (control) (for different time intervals) controlled. By controlling the pressure in this way, the loading pressure is created. and the pressure at the turbocharger inlet (approximately) (Atmospheric pressure), the control pressure.

The N75 can either direct the LD or atmospheric return to the pressure vessel, but NOT the charging pressure to the suction side. That would mean, for example, with a 3/2-way valve, that the cylinder would then be isolated = incorrectly connected...

Malte1408 wrote:

No, it's a 3/2-way valve. If it were functioning as you understand the original principle, it would mean that when N75 is switched on, it would isolate the pressure cylinder, but the pressure within it would still be maintained, and the WG would not close at all, unless there is a leak or the temperature drops. The N75 either switches on the LD or activates the atmosphere for the container. By "atmosphere," I mean the area around the luffa (sail) after it has been pulled in. EDIT: By the way, is this also mentioned in your PDF? Quote: The EUV operates as a throttle valve. It is coming from the engine control unit. with specific control conditions (control) (for different time intervals) controlled. By controlling the pressure in this way, the loading pressure is created. and the pressure at the turbocharger inlet (approximately) (Atmospheric pressure), the control pressure. The N75 can either direct the LD or atmospheric return to the pressure vessel, but NOT the charging pressure to the suction side. That would mean, for example, with a 3/2-way valve, that the cylinder is then isolated = incorrectly connected...

Ok,ok,
I think we're just going around in circles, and I've misinterpreted the original principle.

You are correct in your phrasing; the N75 physically switches between atmospheric pressure and compressor pressure.
The pressure canister is attached to the line, which is continuously connected to and disconnected from the other lines. "That's how I understand it from the diagrams."

Since the pressure container is always connected to one of the two lines, regardless of the position of the valve, it can also always be "vented".

And that's where I also see the difference from the "hole regulation". The formation of the total pressure is based on "releasing pressure", while in the original principle it is based on "blocking the pressure and adding atmospheric pressure".

In my principle, the pressure vessel would also never be locked, but the rule would be different. The gear ratio would have a different effect on the actual loading pressure, but the proportionality would remain the same.
(The more often N75 is charged, the higher the charging pressure)
Whether it would also work, leaves it up to individual experimentation.

Let's see if I really try, it would certainly be tempting.
My version would have the advantage that even if the line to the N75 were to break, some pressure would still arrive at Wategate, and the turbo might not completely shut down.

Thank you and best regards.
Jens

Quote:

My version would have the advantage that even if the line to the N75 breaks, some pressure would still arrive at Wategate, and the turbo might not completely shut off.

Noe

If the line to the N75 breaks, the boost pressure in the control line will be released into the open. The wastegate is completely blocked and won't open.

Have you ever used a pneumatic (syringe) for a group project? This thing is incredibly powerful!

m;

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My version would have the advantage that even if the line to the N75 breaks, some pressure would still arrive at Wategate, and the turbo might not completely shut off.

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Noe If the line to the N75 breaks, the boost pressure in the control line will be released into the open. The wastegate is completely blocked and won't open.

This depends on Jens' version, specifically what cross-section he uses for the N75. The pressure vessel would then still remain connected, but the "SDDAS" (Copyright by Jens) , which is similar to the N75, would be fully activated.

Malte1408 wrote:

That depends on Jens' version, what cross-section he lays down for the N75.

According to the experience of some "golf enthusiasts" with older Golf models, a 1mm hole in the pressure line leading to the wastegate pressure sensor results in a shift of the maximum boost pressure by 0.1 bar.
On my K14-6087, the wastegate is factory-set to a maximum boost pressure of 0.8 bar. I will also leave it like this.
I will execute the cross-section of the line to the N75 in such a way that the line fits neatly onto the fitting on the N75
Since the Turbo rotary joints are located at the ends of the pressure line, I will have suitable lines pressed by a hydraulic specialist. He also has high-temperature-resistant cables.
I will report on the results of the craft project

By the way, in this current trend of experimentation, I'm also going to start with the AFN-MSG and see what happens. "I only switch to 1Z-MSG afterwards (except for the AFN-MSG, which is a complete disaster)."
Has anyone ever fired up a turbocharger with a wastegate and VTG-MSG? With the right wiring configuration from the N75, this should at least theoretically be possible.
(Ignoring any expected differences in wording)

Greetings
Jens