Zweimassenschwungrad BPX gibt es einen umbaukit auf Einmasse | Posts 16+

cksIT wrote:

At AFN, they are also switching to EMS, and some of the boxes have a considerable amount of torque. You just need to make sure to install a sprung clutch. And if you install everything correctly, then the engine will also run correctly.

The only question is how to define "a lot of torque." Unfortunately, one often reads phrases like "probably over 200 horsepower," which could mean anything, just like in that thread recently, where the ARL "should have been around 190 horsepower" and was running with 5% more fuel injection.

Similarly, the torque output could vary; will it be around 350 Nm or closer to 500 Nm? What is the torque curve like? Large torque peak at 2000 rpm, which drops sharply again until 4000 rpm. --> Discard the tuning and have it adjusted to produce a more even output, taking material stress into account.

When dealing with very high torque levels, only a dual-mass flywheel (DMF) makes sense, as it effectively smooths out the vibrations. A sprung clutch disc is really only intended to allow for relatively smooth starts.

There are plenty of vehicles that achieve over 200 horsepower (according to dyno tests and official data), and with that, they certainly have more than 350 Nm of torque.
And they also run quite smoothly. (at least not as extremely as a bag of nuts)

I believe it's the most sensible solution because it's quite durable and also financially viable.

There are enough vehicles that achieve over 200 horsepower (according to dyno tests and DZR) and therefore certainly have >350 Nm of torque.
And they also run quite smoothly. (at least not as extremely as a bag of nuts)

If you change the system consisting of the KW (suspension components) and ZMS (transmission components), you will have a problem!

Sure, there are plenty of people who manage to get over 200 horsepower out of their AHF or ALR engines, but no one admits when the transmission breaks down.
And no, 30,000 km is not a mileage at which components can be considered reliable!

had a customer's vehicle with EMS on the ARL, it was rattling like crazy at idle... but I think there was something loose on the clutch, because when you pressed the clutch, the rattling stopped (but it still shook violently).

Isn't that statement enough, or what?
At least it fits with everything that has been written here.

Or you simply accept the fact that your gearbox is falling apart, the engine mounts are becoming soft, the clutch isn't engaging properly, and basically everything is running outside of its specifications, but it's 'good enough.'

Best regards,

Regarding the aforementioned accident report, I am certain that there were other underlying issues involved.
Because I've already seen quite a few of them in idle mode (ASZ AFN... across the entire range), and I can say that they don't really run worse (at least not in a way that you could attribute it to the EMS).
It's clear that the dome-forming process decreases in that case!


There are plenty of cars that have been converted to use an EMS (Engine Management System) and have accumulated mileage exceeding 50,000 km. Similarly, there are also plenty of cars that, with a ZMS (presumably referring to a specific type of transmission) and tuning, have damaged their transmissions after less than 20,000 km.

I mean to say that it's impossible to know for sure just how bad the transition to EMS really is! There are too many additional aspects that need to be considered here.

Because I've already seen quite a few of them idling (ASZ AFN... across the entire range), and I can say that they don't really run worse (at least not so much that you can blame it on the EMS).

I don't see the main problem in the LL (likely referring to a specific measurement or system), as the values observed there are relatively small compared to the operating conditions.
You only realize how much the sound is being attenuated, or not, when you properly request a moment of silence.

Problematic for a CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) are low engine speeds and simultaneously high torque.
When you build upon these fundamentals, you'll experience significantly fewer issues with the ZMS.

Getting a decent chip installed would be a good idea, right?

That's correct here.

Or you simply live with the fact that your transmission is falling apart,
...and you'll be happy that, at the same time, the ZMS can no longer break.

You will have to die, sorry.

Best regards,

Regarding LL: I'm more inclined to agree with Rainer's comment.

The question now is: how can I get a proper chip tuning done, while still achieving over 200 horsepower, and keeping the dual-mass flywheel (DMF)?

The question now is how can I get my car properly tuned, while also achieving over 200 horsepower, and still keeping the dual-mass flywheel (ZMS)?

Rainer is the person who can answer this question with extremely high certainty.

To achieve a little over 200 horsepower at 4000 rpm, you only need approximately 360 Nm of torque.
You can now adjust all settings within the range of up to 4000 rpm to prevent the dual-mass flywheel (ZMS) from being overloaded.

One way to achieve this is by reducing the torque peak at 2000 rpm....

Theoretically, it's also possible to program a driving behavior that mimics a gasoline-powered vehicle.
A problem for a continuously variable transmission (CVT) is low engine speeds combined with high torque.
consider

From this point on, Rainer is the right person to contact, as we do not offer any support or guidance to other tuners, sorry.


Best regards, Jochen.

Hi.

VW Industriemotoren has specified a single-mass flywheel for all PD-TDI engines.
However, that's where it stops with "factory-standard" power output of 74 kW.

A dual-mass flywheel in typical industrial motor applications (forklifts, construction equipment, trucks, etc.) would probably be pointless and wouldn't last long.

Regards,
Jens.

Jens 16syncro wrote:

A dual-mass flywheel in typical industrial motor applications (forklifts, construction equipment, trucks, etc.) would probably be pointless and wouldn't last long.

Hi,

And that's not necessary either. In most applications, these are used to drive hydraulic pumps, where combustion pulses are not a problem. This is similar to the torque converter in an automatic transmission, which dampens vibrations so effectively that it makes the dual-mass flywheel (ZMS) unnecessary in automatic transmissions.

Aron wrote:

In most applications,

hydraulic pumps are driven by it.

VW explicitly sells the 2.0L PD-TDI engine with 74 kW, also in a "NU" version.
This refers to light commercial vehicles, and the engine also meets the corresponding Euro 4 emission standard for commercial vehicles.
A central tire inflation system (CTIS) is not available, and in my opinion, that's perfectly correct, as a CTIS has no place in a commercial vehicle carrying payloads up to 100% of its unladen weight.
So, it can also be done with a single-mass flywheel (provided it has sufficient inertia).
Certainly, a "lightened" flywheel would not be recommended, as the inertia dampens the vibrations.
For example, I see this with the 1.9L TDI conversions in T3 Syncros. The original dual-mass flywheel (ZMS) of the AFN engine frequently fails prematurely because it's not designed for off-road applications. People then upgrade to a 1Z flywheel.
It drives quite well, and the transmissions are just as durable as those with a dual-mass flywheel. Additionally, with the T3 transmission, the input shaft is very long and divided, as the axle differential is located between the gearbox and the flywheel. Long waves with a specific wavelength can also dampen certain vibrations.

I just want to say that operating a TDI engine with a standard flywheel isn't as crazy as some people here seem to think. The dual-mass flywheel (ZMS) provides comfort and a longer lifespan for the manual transmission in passenger cars. Then one simply has to do without it.

Regards,
Jens.

I actually just want to say that operating a TDI engine with a standard flywheel isn't as far-fetched as some people here seem to think. The dual-mass flywheel (ZMS) provides comfort and a longer lifespan for the manual transmission in passenger cars. You just have to do without it then.

Hello Jens,

That is the crucial point! ZMS is primarily a comfort-feature. The fact that this reduces the load on the transmission is a nice feature that helps lower the cost of the transmissions.
The problem arises when you change the entire system, including the crankshaft, timing chain, and transmission. Because these things are now coordinated with each other.

People then upgrade to a 1Z flywheel.
It drives quite well, and the transmissions are just as durable as those with a dual-mass flywheel. Additionally, with the T3 transmission, the input shaft is very long and divided, as the axle differential is located between the gearbox and the flywheel. Long waves with a specific wavelength can also dampen certain vibrations.

Unfortunately, this is comparing apples and oranges.
You've already mentioned one reason yourself. A second point is the significantly lower torque output of the (likely production) VP-TDI engine.
Things look quite different when you're dealing with 350 Nm or more...
I would like to refer again to Rainer's experiences in this regard.

Best regards, Jochen.

Quote:

It becomes problematic when you change the entire system, including the KW (connecting rod), ZMS (torque converter), and transmission. Because this has now been coordinated.

Hello Jochen,

I would be more cautious with that statement. "By 'matched,' do you mean that the parts were balanced together?"

If that is the case, I would like to object. When you add up the differences in the weights of the pistons and connecting rods, you can only speak of standard tolerances. I can imagine that the heavier dual-mass flywheel is intended to smooth out the effects of these tolerances. I also can't imagine that every crankshaft is individually balanced. -> Cost.
Therefore, I don't believe that the transition from a ZMS to an EMS will be problematic (from the perspective of the crank drive).

In PD racing vehicles, electric motors are typically used, and these often have a power output exceeding 150 kW. When something breaks in these systems, it's rarely the crankshaft or, more specifically, the crankshaft and its bearings. Sure, piston holes, broken valves, bent connecting rods, yes, but never crankshaft damage.

Best regards,
Thomas.

I would be more cautious with that statement. 'By 'matched,' do you mean that the parts were balanced together?'

If that is the case, I would like to object.

Hello Thomas,
You can definitely do that in this case. 'In the standard production, the Kurvewelle and ZMS are not actually finely balanced.'
-> Costs.
That is the exact reason for it.
'Matched' also means that the crankshaft can be balanced with an imbalance specifically designed for the dual-mass flywheel (DMF), and this is considered during the design process, so that a specific type of DMF is precisely matched to that particular crankshaft. That's how I understood this concept of 'being coordinated.'

Therefore, I don't believe that the conversion from ZMS to EMS will be problematic. (From the perspective of the crank drive).
Yes, from the crankshaft's perspective, it's not critical because the 'uneven rotation' of the crankshaft isn't smoothed out. However, the transmission input shaft shows a significantly smoother rotation due to the dual-mass flywheel, and consequently, the entire engine runs more smoothly overall. If the vibrations of the crankshaft are not properly dampened by the dual-mass flywheel (ZMS), the engine will run more unevenly.

In PD racing vehicles, EMS (Engine Management Systems) are usually used, and these often have a power output exceeding 150 kW. When something breaks, it is almost never the crankshaft or, more specifically, the crankshaft itself, including. Storage.

Okay, because the problem with ZMS is high torque at low RPMs.
You'll probably rarely find that in motorsports.
Therefore, appropriate software will significantly ease the burden on the ZMS (as mentioned above) and, consequently, may not make the transition to an EMS absolutely necessary.
Furthermore, IDR racing transmissions are used, which can handle more torque (due to the involute tooth profile) and are designed for low running distances.

Best regards, Jochen.

Hello Jochen,

I recently came across this thread again because of a current issue I'm having with a slipping clutch, and I realized that I still owe someone a response.

Quote:

Therefore, corresponding software will already provide a significant relief for the ZMS (see above), and thus may not necessarily make the conversion to EMS mandatory.

You're really giving them a lot of credit. My experiences, on the other hand, show that performance is demanded without regard for consequences. It's all just a matter of maintaining a certain pace, and often the person who can achieve the most "favorable" result gets to go to the STG.

I have to say, I haven't gained my experience in "real professional racing." It was mainly VLN, 24h races, GLP, and a few other smaller things.

Quote:

Furthermore, IDR racing transmissions are used, which can handle more torque (due to the involute gearing) and are designed for low mileage.

"Not even those. The ones I know use standard transmissions, but they often have them rebuilt or replaced relatively frequently. "Racing transmissions" are usually sequential transmissions that require a type of ignition interruption, which is quite difficult to implement with TDI engines using EDC15+ / 16 systems." We were exploring an approach involving the full-load shut-off of the air conditioning compressor.

Quote:

Had a customer's vehicle with EMS on the ARL, it was rattling like crazy at idle... but I think there was something loose on the clutch, because when you pressed the clutch, the rattling stopped (but it still shook violently).

I don't think that's a very good description, and it's rather uninformative, because it doesn't tell you anything about the rest of the modifications. The lack of running culture can have completely different reasons.
It's all speculation, and Rainer said that something was "loose." Who knows what else might have been wrong? Furthermore, it is not clear "which" EMS (Electrostatic Motor System) was installed.
I can install an EMS that is roughly the same weight as the ZMS, or an EMS made of lightweight metal that weighs 4.x kg.

I've already seen someone drop the flywheel before installing it.
The result could also be described in this way. As I said, it's not informative for me.

@Jens 16syncro

Quote:

VW Industriemotoren has specified a single-mass flywheel for all PD-TDI engines. However, with 74 kW "from the factory," that's already the limit.

Do you know about the MKB? I was looking for industrial motors, but I couldn't find any PDs.

Best regards,
Thomas.

Thomas wrote:

Do you know about the MKB? I was looking for industrial motors, but I couldn't find any PDs.

Hi Thomas,

Where did you look?

Found today at VW industrial engines:

[url][/url]

Datasheet available here:

[url][/url]

That's definitely a PD-Diesel for me.

Regards,
Jens.http://www.vw-industrial-engines.com/industriemotoren/motoren/dieselmotoren/tdi-20-474-nd/index.html?L=0{MARKER}http://www.vw-industrial-engines.com/fileadmin/industriemotoren/download/public/de/Datenblaetter_Motoren/de_TDI_2-0_4XX.pdf{MARKER}

Hello Jens,

Thank you for the links!

Quote:

Where did you look?

There's a program where you can look up all the parts for VWs, etc.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any technical documentation (like MKB, etc.) for an EMS product, or even for any PD industrial motors.

Quote:

This is clearly a PD-Diesel for me.

Certainly! Now, I would also need the TN of the EMS or an ICD code.


Best regards,
Thomas.