Ursachen für ölfressende Neuwagen? | Posts 16+

Hi,
My cousin once had a used Passat with a transversely mounted TDI engine (90 hp) that needed 40,000 km (approximately 25,000 miles) before the oil consumption returned to a normal, low level.
The short warm-up time for mopeds is understandable: since the engine only runs from 12:00 to noon (compared to cars), the warm-up process of the likely very soft material is also short.

I also contacted Volkswagen about the oil consumption because the new engine consumes significantly more oil than the old one.
It was approximately 0.9 liters per 1000 km, despite a break-in period of about 3000 km, with the engine never exceeding 2000 rpm when cold. However, the oil consumption is now slowly decreasing. I can only check the exact oil consumption this weekend; I have the relevant documents.

I contacted two VW workshops (in different cities), and both told me that for new engines, up to 3 liters per 10,000 km is normal. Some engines use nothing, while others are close to the 3-liter mark, but that should decrease over time (with mileage).

"I'd like to chime in now. I've been following your discussions (as a silent reader). I drive a Fiat Stilo JTD with 85 kW. I'm also active in a related forum. Apparently, only VW seems to have this oil-burning problem. We haven't had any JTDs with that issue. Mine is still at the maximum level after 17,000 km. A friend of mine, who drives a new Passat PD TDI with 130 hp, also has this problem. He's using 0.7 liters of oil per 1000 km, resulting in blue smoke from the exhaust. The workshops are not being accommodating because it's supposedly within the normal range." Is there perhaps another alternative?

donalexo wrote:

@x world online: Quote: Even if I may be alone in my opinion, but I still believe that new engines need to be broken in. Huh? Which statement of the above? Is Postings seriously claiming that? Of course, a new engine still needs to be broken in. Nothing will change quickly unless engine manufacturers run the engines through a break-in cycle on a test bench before installing them in a new vehicle. However, this is already hampered by the costs and the amount of time required. Therefore, we will continue to leave this up to the customers. Regards, Alex

Hi,

"This wasn't directed at any specific posts. It's a general observation I've made that many people believe new engines no longer require a break-in period. Also, a lot of people think engines don't need to be warmed up. They believe that an engine should be able to handle full throttle, whether it's cold or warm, and that it shouldn't matter." Of course, it's even more surprising when the same people say that a motor only lasts a maximum of 100,000 km, and that all cars with over 80,000 km are practically junk.

As I mentioned, these are my experiences with people who aren't familiar with cars in a technical sense. This has absolutely nothing to do with any of the posts here.

Well, the fourth one probably would have lasted longer if it hadn't suffered damage from being driven without being properly warmed up first...
Things like layer cross-sections or the installation of seals play a role.
and: manufacturing accuracy has nothing to do with surface roughness.

CU Gremlin


No, that had nothing to do with it. A valve broke off and completely destroyed the piston.
The largest piece I've found so far is a 1cm long piece of the piston ring .

The rest escapes through a hole, approximately 4cm in diameter, in the block, and towards the exhaust!

"Quote from christians:

Quote:

The short warm-up time for mopeds is obvious: since the engine only runs from 12 to noon anyway (compared to cars), the warm-up process of the probably very soft material is also short.

"
"On my CBR900 (which is quite different from a car engine), the break-in period also took 10,000 km for the oil consumption to settle down to around 0.05...0.1 liters per 1000 km, and it will maintain that level (provided you don't only ride on the rear wheel like some less fortunate individuals) for a good 150,000 km...or is quality a factor here?"
Smoothly broken in.
OlBe
P.S.: It's also being reported in the Skoda forum that the oil consumption decreases significantly after the first 15,000 km, and in some cases, it may not even need to be topped up between the 15,000 km service intervals.

Hi Ulf,

"My automatic transmission also consumed 1 liter of fluid in the first 10,000 km, and so far (at 30,000 km), I haven't needed to add any, but it's almost time to top it up now!"
The same thing happened with my Passat 130hp TDI from the company. He only added a whole liter of oil at 15,000 km, but it's been quiet since then (around 45,000 km).

No, that had nothing to do with it; a valve broke off and left nothing of the piston.


and who tells you that it didn't have a stall and that's why it broke off?

CU Gremlin.

Hi Ulf,

Don't worry too much, our Polo made it all the way from Pamplona to the delivery hall at Autostadt without any obvious damage . I would be more concerned about how VW stores the vehicles until they are delivered. For example, my Golf had to sit somewhere for a full 5 weeks after it was manufactured because AutoStadt didn't have any available appointments.

It seems that VW engines have been undergoing significantly better fine-tuning in recent years, as the break-in period for my vehicles has been getting longer. The improved oils are likely also contributing to this. My III 2.0 AGG engine required approximately 1.5 liters of top-up oil during the break-in period (!). After 1,500 km, the oil consumption was no longer measurable between oil change intervals. It remained unchanged until it was sold at 97,000 km.

The current 96 kW ASZ TDI engine consumed its first half liter of oil at 7,300 km. Around 14,000 km, I added another half liter. Now, it has a little over 23,000 km on it, and the oil level is approximately at the halfway mark. He seems to have minimized himself.

Our 47 kW gasoline-powered Polo has currently needed 2,500 km to get closer to its minimum fuel consumption figure. However, I haven't received any refill reminders yet.

All the cars were strictly run in according to regulations, and they were always treated gently when cold. However, they were not given any special treatment when warm.

For the first 1,000 km, keep the engine warm and do not exceed 3,000/min (for TDI engines). Use minimal throttle, vary the engine speed, and especially avoid putting much load on the engine when going uphill. After 1,000 km, gradually increase the load and (initially only when going downhill) increase the engine speed. After 1,500 km, you can briefly reach the redline in 3rd gear when driving downhill on country roads. Once the engine has experienced all engine speeds, you can resume normal daily driving. Always make sure to warm it up properly first.

A colleague bought a used 2001 (company) Passat with a 96 kW engine. It definitely wasn't properly broken in. It now has almost 100,000 km on the odometer, and he needs to add half a liter of oil every 5,000 km. It's not even using long-life oil, but 50501 specification! There's probably something to be said for breaking in .

@Gremlin:

Due to the thermal expansion of the aluminum pistons, they at least have a steel insert to prevent the worst effects.

@Gremlin:

Due to the thermal expansion of the aluminum pistons, they at least have a steel insert that prevents the worst of it.

and that has been the case for over 50 years .

However, things like ring grooves and fire bridges remain critical issues.

CU Gremlin.

Bertil wrote:

Quote: -> What is the consumption rate initially (approximately), and what is the range of variation? Initially, about 1-1.5 liters. However, there are also vehicles that have consumption figures as low as 0.1L to 0.3L. Quote: -> At what approximate mileage is the final fuel consumption of approximately 0.1 liters reached? Also, that also varies, but around 15,000 km, all of them have almost the same oil consumption.

Hi Bertil,

"Thank you, that's some interesting information."

If I were to speculate about the causes of oil consumption:

-> I think Lader should be excluded, as he probably won't "recover" on his own.

-> Valve stem seals and external seals are likely also affected.

-> In my opinion, the only area where significant surface smoothing and thus improved sealing occurs during the break-in period is the piston, piston rings, and cylinder bore. This results in less oil being "drawn upwards into the combustion chamber" compared to a brand new engine.

Could speculative minor wear points in the area of the piston rings/cylinder (caused by the harsh operation of the brand new engine) potentially smooth out over time to the extent that the affected engines exhibit a high initial oil consumption that later decreases to a normal level – as if nothing had happened?
For example, are you referring to the engines from "your" fleet?

Or does an engine with such "birth defects" remain an oil-guzzler until the flaws are specifically addressed (e.g., by honing the cylinders, installing oversized pistons, etc.)?

Could speculative minor wear points in the area of the piston rings/cylinder (caused by the harsh operation of the brand new engine) potentially be 'smoothed out' over time, such that the affected engines initially exhibit high oil consumption, which then later reduces to a normal level - as if nothing had happened?


Yes, that can certainly happen. Although, I believe that modern engines are generally less fault-tolerant than the 'older' ones.

CU Gremlin.

ulf wrote:

Could speculative minor wear points in the area of the piston rings/cylinder (caused by the harsh operation of the brand new engine) potentially be "smoothed out" over time, such that the affected engines initially exhibit high oil consumption, which then later reduces to a normal level - as if nothing had happened? For example, are you referring to the engines from "your" fleet?

I agree with Gremlin. But I don't have a good idea off the top of my head either.

Quote:

Or does an engine with such "birth defects" remain an oil-guzzler until the flaws are specifically corrected (e.g., by honing the cylinders, installing oversized pistons, etc.)?

I doubt you can cause "birth defects" in an engine these days. At least not anymore, at the end of the series.

At BMW, each vehicle is driven on a type of performance test stand at the end of the production process and subjected to defined cycles. The purpose of this exercise is to allow the engine to break in (at least roughly) and to identify any defects from the production process (rattling, knocking, irregularities, etc.). Audi has a similar procedure, and for certain model series, a test drive is even conducted on the premises. I don't know how VW organizes things, but if the engines are already installed, they've probably already been running for quite a while.
Current production processes aim for a high degree of reproducibility, so it's unlikely that allowing the driver to start the engine at the end of the assembly line (topic: the human factor of uncertainty) would be in the best interest of production quality. (... hopefully, no one has noticed that I work in the quality department...)
The engines are manufactured in other facilities, such as car factories, and no untested engines will be delivered from the engine plant to the final assembly line. The goal is to consistently deliver high-quality engines to every customer, even those who are internal customers (e.g., VW plants X, Y, Z, Audi plants A, B...). The tolerance data is already measured at the engine plant. If a component is not up to standard... Repair, or scrap.

Bertil wrote:

I doubt that you can still cause "birth defects" in an engine today. At least not anymore, at the end of the series.

Hi Bertil,

"By 'birth,' I actually meant the entire period up to the point of delivery to the first buyer." So, including all loading trips, etc.

Quote:

At BMW, each vehicle is driven on a type of performance test stand at the end of the production process and subjected to defined cycles of stress. The purpose of this exercise is to allow the engine to break in (at least roughly) and to identify any defects from the production process (rattling, knocking, irregularities, etc.). Audi has a similar procedure, where, starting with a certain model series, a test drive is even offered on the premises.

Defined cycles, that's where we have it... I can hardly imagine that the worst-case scenario for a winter loading operation – i.e., revving up to the limiter immediately after a -10°C cold start (who would want to rule something like that out ) – is included in it...

Quote:

I don't know how VW organizes this, but once the engines are installed, they are certainly already running for a good while.

A good run before installation?
That would only be possible on an engine test stand or something similar.

Quote:

The engines are manufactured in other facilities, such as car factories, and untested engines will not be delivered by the engine plant to the final assembly line. After all, the goal is to provide every customer (even if they are internal, such as VW plants X, Y, Z, or Audi plants A, B...) with consistently high-quality engines. The tolerance data are already measured at the engine manufacturing plant.

Ah, yes, see above.
So, the engines are probably not completely new, before they are subjected to the heavy loads of the loading drivers.

But does this guarantee that damage caused by running a cold engine can no longer cause later problems?

As far as I know, hot spots are created during extreme temperature peaks, and these are likely to occur less frequently when the engine is cold (due to the temperature-buffering effect of the cold materials) compared to when the engine is running hot. However, this raises the question of what kind of damage 8Ocould possibly occur when the engine is cold and the driver is accelerating hard.
*slightly confused, staring at laundry*

Hello! Based on my experience, I wouldn't assume that the engines have been running before being installed in the vehicle. In any case, there are no signs of soot whatsoever on the turbocharger or the exhaust valves. However, after the "marriage" (referring to the vehicle assembly), the vehicles are driven on dynamometers to perform so-called "mixture adaptations." Unfortunately, I can't say exactly what's involved in that process. However, it seems that (in the case of gasoline engines), lambda values, compressor/turbocharger pressure values, and similar parameters are checked in specific speed and load ranges. I also think it's possible that an exact throttle valve learning process is performed. However, it's difficult to obtain more detailed information, as everything is controlled by a computer... And there's no time for a warm-up, as after just about 2 minutes, the car is immediately accelerated to 130 km/h (full throttle!).

Best regards,
pretzel

@Ulf:

You make it a little easier on your car if you order it in the spring or summer. Then it's not nearly as cold, and any potential "slipping" during loading is likely to be less of a problem at +20 degrees Celsius than at below-freezing temperatures.

However, I find it even more important that you allow the new paint to cure properly and that you can also apply a protective coating without needing a heated garage, before salt and gravel start to impact it. I also think that the initial break-in period will be better for an engine that isn't so cold. That's why I never order new cars towards the winter.