Warnung: Biodieselfreigabe bei SEAT! | Posts 16+

SeatArosa1.7SDI wrote:

... Then all that is needed is for the legal authorities to confirm that the DIN EN 14214 also corresponds to the former E DIN 51606. It's just a formality, right?

If you find someone who is willing to get involved with all the potential consequences, then yes.
But nobody will actually do that.

Hello,
Here is the statement from SEAT Germany. I will omit the entire email correspondence as it would be too extensive.

Dear Mr. ...,

Thank you for your email of May 20, 2004. Please excuse the late reply.

Your Alhambra vehicle is designed for biodiesel (RME) according to the standard DIN 51606, as specified in the operating manual.

According to the manufacturer SEAT, our vehicles comply with the standard DIN EN 14214, as you mentioned.
Spain is not approved.

With the introduction of the new fuel standard FAME, in addition to rapeseed, other basic materials will also be used for...
Approved for processing into biodiesel. This includes not only soybean and sunflower oil, but also used cooking oils and fats.
various animal fats, such as beef tallow and fish oil.

These fuels pose a risk of filter blockage, which can lead to your vehicle breaking down in practice.
Therefore, we will continue to only allow FAME biodiesel made from rapeseed (RME) to be used in our vehicles.

We would like to point out that the new regulations allow fuel manufacturers to...
Up to five percent biodiesel can be added to diesel fuels according to the EN 590 standard. We see this as a positive development.
the right way to allow all diesel drivers to benefit from regenerative fuels.

Best regards,

To be confirmed.


Head of Service / Service Management / Customer Support.


SEAT Germany GmbH
Customer support.

Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

'Notes from my side:'

Even according to the old standard, other raw materials besides rapeseed were already part of the specification. This was already limited by vehicle manufacturers in the user manual by specifying 'RME' (rapeseed methyl ester).
The same applies to the standard DIN EN 14214. In other words, the manufacturer can impose similar limitations.

The statement that the manufacturer only allows FAME produced from rapeseed as a raw material (RME) contradicts the user manual, which states that FAME produced from vegetable oil as a raw material (PME; plant-based methyl ester) is an acceptable fuel.

It's interesting that the statement mentions the risk of a filter blockage. This wouldn't necessarily be a major issue for the user, as it could also happen with the older standard. However, conversely, this implies that there is no risk of damage to the injection system, since the only concern is the potential for filter blockage. It's strange, though, that VW uses the same fuel filter and doesn't experience these problems.

Interestingly, SEAT does not address these arguments in the subsequent email correspondence. For example, it is mentioned that the technical reasons have been sufficiently explained (which, in turn, confirms my previous paragraph), and that the VW engines are not comparable to those of the Alhambra.

Best regards,

Dirk.

@Bertil

The operating instructions were only accessible after the purchase agreement was concluded, and therefore were not a direct part of the purchase agreement. During the conversation, I was confirmed that the product was suitable for use with biodiesel.

Your AXR (presumably a component or system) also needs to be approved for the new standard. Below is Volkswagen's response to the same question. It was an older Golf TDI manufactured before 2003.

Dear Mr. ...,

Thank you for your inquiry.

The vehicle mentioned above is designed to operate with fuel that meets the requirements of standard EN

I will refrain from commenting on the statement 'Should problems arise...' for now. It is likely well-known what I would say.

Best regards,

Dirk.

@Bertil

The Auto Bild article is old news and I'm familiar with it. It refers to the models that comply with the Euro 4 standard, which are not approved for sale because compliance with the EU4 regulations could not be guaranteed otherwise.
The corrosion mentioned only occurs with biodiesel that does not meet the required standards. There have been studies on long-term testing (2 years). These studies showed that biodiesel with low oxidation stability caused corrosion and deposits. Therefore, the parameter 'oxidation stability' has also been included in the new standard.
With the inclusion of biodiesel under the 10th Federal Immission Control Ordinance (BlmSchV), it will be subject to the same controls as diesel fuel according to standard 590. This should lead to a significant reduction in quality differences.

However, one problem remains: Bosch does not install a biodiesel-resistant shaft seal in its VEP37 pumps.

Overall, this is a poorly researched article.

Best regards,

Dirk.

Dirk_S wrote:

@Bertil The operating instructions were only accessible after the purchase agreement was concluded, and therefore were not a direct part of the purchase agreement. During the conversation, I was assured that the product was compatible with biodiesel.

The instructions are an integral part of the purchase agreement, regardless of whether you have seen them beforehand or not.
Your dealer will likely have a problem with that. You can't hold SEAT responsible for it.

Quote:

Your AXR (presumably a component or system) also needs to be approved for the new standard. Below is Volkswagen's response to the same question. It was an older Golf TDI manufactured before 2003.

Absolutely not (anymore). Newer AXR models have an insert in their operating manual that allows the use of FAME (Attention: not RME) according to EU standards, starting from a certain production year. However, my AXR is older than that. I am only allowed to use RME according to the DIN standard (which no longer exists).

Quote:

... The standard EN 14214 replaces the previous standards. Standards DIN E 51 606 and DIN V 51 606. Please refer to the notes provided. the operating instructions for use with rapeseed methyl ester (RME). ....

The sentence is definitely wrong!
I actually have the exact opposite statement from Volkswagen.
EN 14214 is not a replacement standard for DIN E(V) 51 606!

Quote:

I will refrain from commenting on the statement "Should problems arise..." for now. It is likely well-known what I would say.

I will refrain from doing that as well.
This effectively voids any warranty claims related to this document. The document is worthless, not even worth the paper it's printed on.

@SeatArosa1.7SDI

That's exactly the strategy I'm using now. I can prove it because I only fill up at one specific gas station (at least, that was the case with my previous car, a Škoda Octavia).

1. Compliance with standard 14214 (I keep records of where I refuel, including receipts).
2. Rapeseed oil as a base material.
3. The water content is below the limit of 300 mg/L due to a written commitment from the supplier (ADM Oil Mill Leer, Hamburg). Background: This is the only parameter that is worse in the new standard (500 mg/L). Companies affiliated with AGQM-Biodiesel have committed to offering only such biodiesel. This is also monitored by AGQM.

'By fulfilling these three points, I meet the requirements for approval. In court, this could create difficulties for SEAT if they claim that the fuel did not meet the standards. However, as I said, I don't want things to come to that.'

Best regards,

Dirk.

The instructions are, in any case, part of the purchase agreement. Whether you have seen them before or not.
Your dealer will have a problem with that. You can't blame SEAT for it.

I don't want to blame SEAT for this. They should simply state that biodiesel can no longer be used. Biodiesel according to the old standard must not be sold anymore. Consequently, new vehicles should also no longer be approved for use with it.

The sentence is definitely wrong!!!
I actually have the exact opposite statement from Volkswagen.
EN 14214 is not the replacement standard for DIN E (V) 51 606!!

In this case, it wouldn't matter to me at all, because the customer has been explicitly confirmed of that information, the document was legally binding and signed, and the customer can therefore rely on it.


Otherwise, I don't want to discuss this topic any further. It seems there are arguments for and against it.
I would like to prioritize the warning message for the SEAT customer.

Best regards,

Dirk.

The corrosion mentioned only occurs with biodiesel that does not comply with regulations. There have been studies on long-term testing (2 years). In these tests, corrosion and deposits occurred with biodiesel that had low oxidation stability. Therefore, the parameter 'oxidation stability' has also been included in the new standard.
With the inclusion of biodiesel under the 10th Federal Immission Control Ordinance (BlmSchV), it will be subject to the same controls as diesel fuel according to standard 590. This should significantly reduce quality differences. However, one problem remains: Bosch does not install a biodiesel-resistant shaft seal in its VEP37 pumps.


And here we can clearly see that 'biodiesel' itself isn't inherently bad, but rather the problem lies in the lack of political will from the companies involved (Bosch, VAG).

At the very least, companies like VAG and their subsidiaries should understand that such ambiguous corporate policies are not exactly beneficial for their image.

Perhaps a small consolation is that the sale of 'biodiesel' is artificially restricted, and the price difference compared to mineral diesel is still noticeable. If it were fully approved for all vehicles of all brands, according to the law of supply and demand, the biodiesel price would either match or even slightly exceed the mineral diesel price (if enough consumer segments with an 'eco-conscious' mindset could be found). In that case, separate fuel pumps would eventually become uneconomical. What costs the same can simply be mixed together.

I see it the same way.

Best regards,

Dirk.

@dirk

What do you gain by forcing SEAT to grant you permission? Sure, you might be allowed to add the new fuel additive. But have you thought about it further? You have a problem that may not necessarily be covered by warranty or goodwill. Based on experience, these kinds of issues are often handled generously. I think in your case, they will likely not be as accommodating. On the other hand, if you want to assert warranty claims, you need to prove that the fuel used was compliant with regulations. That might be difficult. You don't know for sure whether the fuel in the tank was always compliant, or if someone tampered with it. I think VAG (Volkswagen Group) has made enough mistakes and has therefore learned how to deflect blame and certainly also has good reasons to do so.'Approval according to the new standard will not be granted. A biopsy approval is already in place. However, the fact that this fuel no longer exists according to EU regulations is a completely different matter.'

My experience with VAG (Volkswagen Group) is that it's best to remain calm and friendly, and definitely don't try to force anything. You'll only run into a brick wall that way.

Dirk_S wrote:

They are only supposed to say that no more biodiesel can be refueled. No biodiesel according to the old standard may be sold. Consequently, a new vehicle should not be approved for use with it either.

Why?
The fact that fuel is no longer being sold according to the old standard is not SEAT's problem.
SEAT has restricted approval to the old standard, effectively excluding the new fuel. This is explicitly stated in SEAT's official communication.

Quote:

In this case, it wouldn't matter to me at all, because the customer has been explicitly confirmed of that information, the document was legally binding and signed, and the customer can therefore rely on it.

In this case, VW is the "villain."
SEAT is acting completely correctly and presenting the facts accurately.

Quote:

Otherwise, I don't want to discuss this topic any further. It seems there are arguments for and against it. I would like to prioritize the warning message for the SEAT customer.

Actually, you're doing yourself more harm than good (as JoergS already mentioned).

It seems I didn't express myself clearly. I don't want to force an approval.

I just want SEAT to openly inform its customers that the approval is no longer being granted. They could simply state that it's a corporate policy decision. Right now, there's simply no transparency here. SEAT is still selling vehicles with biodiesel approval. It's mid-2004, and the old standard has been invalid for 9 months.
Why don't they do it like Volkswagen with the new Golf and Touran, or Audi with the A3, and simply state that the vehicle is not allowed to be operated on biodiesel?

Otherwise, I'm quite familiar with the goodwill policy. With a four-year warranty, I don't really have anything to worry about. And so far, I haven't put any biodiesel in the Alhambra. Of course, I kept the gas receipt showing that I used branded diesel. I'm not *that* naive.

Of course, it's not SEAT's problem that the standard has changed. However, this would also mean (to put it bluntly) that SEAT could still be allowed to sell vehicles with the EU2 standard today. Ultimately, SEAT is not responsible for the fact that new vehicles with the EU2 standard are no longer permitted for sale.

Dirk_S wrote:

... I would like SEAT to openly inform its customers that the approval is no longer being granted.

They do that, but people should really read what's written there (that often goes wrong!).
It's correct of you to warn about that.

Quote:

... SEAT is still selling a vehicle with biodiesel approval. It's mid-2004, and the old standard has been invalid for 9 months.

The "old" standard is still valid!!!
However, due to EU regulations, fuel that meets this standard can no longer be sold.
So, everything that SEAT does is correct. However, consumers need to be vigilant.

Hi there,

I think you almost have to study German in order to draw a clear conclusion from the documents and the BDA (Building Description Document).

Imagine the following:

The pump is broken, and the manufacturer refuses to honor the warranty, citing all of the points mentioned above. The customer is now taking legal action.

His facts:
According to the seller's statement, it is suitable for use with Blu-ray discs.
According to the BDA, this is biodiesel approval.
According to the fuel pump, it meets the new standard; according to the press, it even exceeds the old standard.

How will the judge likely rule? Did the customer actually do anything wrong, other than perhaps discussing the topic excessively on Dieselschrauber.de, and therefore not being fully aware of the manufacturers' rhetorical tactics?

Ich vermute mal so, daß ein Richter es ähnlich sieht, da einem Kunden nur eine begrenzte Sicht der Dinge unterstellt werden kann. Er hat alles erdenkliche gemacht: Verkäufer gefragt, in die BDA geschaut, aus der Presse von einer neuen und besseren Norm erfahren und nur entsprechend genormten Sprit getankt. Und nicht zuletzt davon gewust, daß möglicherweise der Filter verstopfen kann und dieses sogar in Kauf genommen. VThere is no mention of potential pump damage when using the new BD standard anywhere.

User manuals are also standardized and should explicitly mention the difference in approval requirements between the old and new standards, especially if this difference leads to a loss of warranty.

Why don't the instruction manuals clearly state: 'This vehicle is not approved for use with the only biodiesel available on the market, according to standard XYZ?'
Because a key advertising argument would disappear (aside from the damage to the image).

Greetings.

Eike.

Hello,

For those who are still interested. As I mentioned before, I'm continuing to pursue this matter. An inquiry was also sent to SEAT Austria. Initially, they provided the same response as SEAT Germany. However, after not being satisfied with that answer, the following response was received. Hopefully, things will start moving forward soon.

Dear Mr. ...,

Regarding your above-mentioned inquiry about biodiesel to Ms./Mrs.


Greetings,

Dirk.

@Eike:
I see it pretty much the same way you do (see also my post about it).
VW z.B wälzt es (wie es auch den schreiben von VW auf Dirks anfrage zu erkennen ist), dass der Kraftstoff nicht der Norm entsprach, die der Hersteller des Fahrzeuges entsprach. Das heißt: VW unterstellt den Tankstellen, dass Sie dreckigen Biodiesel verkaufen. Damit sind Sie raus und da es immer nur kleine klagen gibt, von dem kleinen Karl Arsch, besteht keine Gefahr für VW. Wenn es allerdings Sammelklagen geben würde, würde VW das bekommen, was Sie verdienen!! Die müssten richtig blechen!! Anders mit der neuen Norm: damit haben Sie erst recht die Möglichkeit zu sagen: ach...Sie haben ja auch nach der neuen Norm getankt. Das You weren't allowed to do that either! lol.
To the people who drive biodiesel and know what it does to their car:
I always hear people saying: 'Oh... I still have a warranty!'
Quite selfish, don't you think? What happens after the warranty expires if you wreck the car? Are you just going to abandon it? That really bothers me.
Don't use biodiesel if you ever plan to sell your car, or use it if you don't intend to sell it! That way, at least it's *your* problem and not the problem of those who are scraping together their last savings just to afford a VW (as an example)! It's going to be expensive enough for VW drivers anyway!!