Warning: Biodiesel Compatibility for SEAT Vehicles!

Hello,

As a new member, here's some information about my vehicle: I drive a SEAT Alhambra 1.9 TDI, manufactured in May 2004, with engine code AUY.

I would not like to discuss the pros and cons of biodiesel at this point. This topic has already been extensively discussed in this forum.

To all of you who drive a SEAT and are currently using biodiesel, I would like to issue a warning.

In the past, SEAT has approved its vehicles for use with biodiesel according to the German preliminary standard DIN 51606. This standard was replaced at the end of last year by the new European standard DIN EN 14214. The new standard is stricter than the old one. Since the beginning of this year, biodiesel can only be legally sold according to the new standard.

Unlike VW, Skoda, and Audi, SEAT is not approving its previously approved vehicles for the new standard. SEAT explicitly pointed out to me that using biodiesel according to the new standard voids any warranty claims! The arguments from SEAT are ridiculous. I will post the correspondence regarding this later today.

Essentially, this means that all previously approved vehicles are no longer allowed to use biodiesel fuel.

I'm currently having a major dispute with SEAT Germany. I have already forwarded the case to Autobild, ADAC, and various other organizations. Currently, I am trying to reach out to the management of SEAT and the VW Group headquarters. If anyone can provide me with contact information for these entities, please let me know.

It would also be great if those affected could put pressure on SEAT as well.

If nothing changes with SEAT in the next few weeks, I will cancel my purchase agreement (I've only driven a few kilometers) and buy the Sharan instead. The Sharan is explicitly approved for the new regulations.

Best regards,

Dirk.

Thank you for the information!

What good does that do you? What do you need that for? As a normally thinking and enlightened person, you don't necessarily drive a Biopiesel car, which means those approvals are essentially useless.

Hello Joergs,

That's a little unfair now - I already consider myself to be...
I consider myself an enlightened and rational person, but I still indulge in occasional pleasures.
RME. It should probably be up to each individual what fuel they choose to use.
A little less polemic would be nice!

Best regards,

Jürgen.

That's my perspective, and I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask a question about it!

@joergs

Thank you for your feedback.
As a well-informed and reasonable person, I also stated in advance that I do not wish to discuss the pros and cons of this matter.

I'm issuing a warning to other SEAT drivers. I consider this to be fair, as SEAT itself doesn't inform its customers about this.

I need this approval because, unlike before, this is no longer just a draft standard. Other types of biodiesel are no longer permitted to be offered. Biodiesel produced according to the new standard has been included in the 10th Federal Immission Control Act (BlmSchV), similar to diesel fuel according to DIN EN 590. This results in different requirements for proof of compliance in the event of damage.
I'm concerned about the issue of warranty expiration. This wasn't a problem in the past. With the extended warranty, I would have 4 years or more, and I didn't want to drive the vehicle for that long.

Best regards,

Dirk.

Now, please allow me to ask the question again:

If you are aware of the risks associated with RME (rape seed methyl ester), why do you need the approvals? As I understand it, are you planning to refuel with RME?

Please provide the text you would like me to translate from German to English. I will only provide the translation, without any explanations or commentary. And please remember that this is just out of curiosity.

Hi,

He wrote: With the extended warranty, the car has a guarantee for the entire time he intends to drive it. So, if something breaks down with the RME, it's VAG's problem, not his.

Is it a fair approach? Because if they release something, they should also be responsible for the damages that result from it, and in this way, they are forced to take responsibility without any discussion.

Best regards,

Jan.

Dirk_S wrote:

.... Unlike Volkswagen, Škoda, and Audi, SEAT is not approving its previously approved vehicles for the new standards. .....

"Sorry, but what's your problem?"
If a manufacturer says they are not approving this fuel, there are reasons for that, and it is their right to do so.

VW/Audi does not approve its new engines (EU4) for use in developing countries, neither under the old nor the new standards.

The approval tests required for a fuel test are extremely expensive and also time-consuming. Because of legal reasons, SEAT cannot simply adopt the approvals from VW; instead, these tests would have to be verified by SEAT. However, it appears that they are not willing to allocate the necessary funds for this.
Now you probably understand why SEAT is cheaper than Volkswagen.

Quote:

... Ultimately, this means that all previously approved vehicles are no longer allowed to use biodiesel. ....

That is certainly possible. However, since I am not a lawyer, I can say very little about it.

@bertil

My problem is that I purchased a vehicle in 2004 which was supposed to be compatible with biodiesel, but it isn't. The conditions for approval are only stated in the user manual. However, the customer is entitled to expect fair treatment and not to be misled. The legal precedent on this matter is quite clear.

Subject: 'Now it's probably clear why SEAT is cheaper.' That's quite a compelling argument. Then Skoda certainly won't grant approval either.

@joergs

I personally conducted a risk-benefit analysis. Based on my assessment, biodiesel seems advantageous for me, provided that the warranty remains valid. I took into account the increased fuel consumption and reduced performance.

Best regards,

Dirk.

Dirk_S wrote:

@bertil My problem is that I purchased a vehicle in 2004 which was supposed to be compatible with biodiesel, but it isn't. The conditions for approval are only stated in the user manual. However, the customer is entitled to expect fair treatment and not to be disadvantaged. The legal precedent on this matter is quite clear.

Did you obtain written confirmation of the building permit (preferably in the purchase agreement)?
If so, then your objection is justified.
If not, then unfortunately you have lost.
The user manual contains the phrase "Subject to modification," which means that technical reasons may render parts of the manual invalid or require changes. This also applies to the product's regulatory approval (BD Freigabe).
The operating instructions included with your vehicle apply to you, along with any applicable extensions or limitations. This also applies even if there is no approval for use with biodiesel (BD).
If the dealer promised you in writing that your car would be suitable for use in a Business District (BD), then that is their problem, not SEAT's problem.
In return, however, you have every right to refuse the acceptance of the vehicle (or even return the car), as the purchase agreement is invalid in several key aspects.
Verbal agreements usually do not have legal validity in a written purchase agreement (due to the lack of evidence, witnesses, etc.).
However, there are exceptions to this rule, although they are quite rare. In your case, you can only hold the dealer responsible.

Quote:

Subject: "Now it's probably clear why SEAT is cheaper." That's quite an argument. Then Skoda certainly won't grant approval either.

... They are saving their money elsewhere...

hello,
Even though your anger is understandable...

I wouldn't start a war; it's not worth it. Life is too short...

'Just seem a little more relaxed,' that's what Americans say about us...

For the few euros you might save, I wouldn't start all that trouble.


greetings

robs

@Bertil

- The sales conversation was not conducted alone.
- Approval information is included in all brochures and on the internet (technical data).
- The approval is also mentioned in the vehicle's operating manual (although it refers to a non-existent standard).
- The purchase agreement doesn't necessarily have to state that the vehicle has four wheels, but it is still implicitly assumed. If a biodiesel approval is confirmed, one would reasonably expect that it applies to the current standard.
- Of course, my dealer is the primary contact person; in extreme cases, I also hold them accountable.

@robs

Ist mir schon klar. But:

- It's not just about the financial aspect (although that is my problem).
- Ich will, dass SEAT offen dazu steht, dass die Fahrzeuge derzeit nicht für Biodiesel freigegeben sind. Dazu sollen die dann auch den Hinweis aus den Prospekten, Internet, Bedienungsanleitung entfernen und ihren Kunden schriftlich mitteilen, dass die Freigabe ab sofort nicht mehr gilt. Dazu fehlt denen aber wohl der Schneid. Why is that?

@everyone

It is important to me that SEAT customers who refuel with biodiesel are aware of the fact described above.

Best regards,

Dirk.

Dirk_S wrote:

@Bertil - The sales conversation was not conducted alone.

That's already very good.

Quote:

- Approval information is included in all brochures and on the internet (technical data). - The approval is also mentioned in the vehicle's operating manual (although it refers to a non-existent standard).

Unfortunately, you lost because of that.
If the vehicle has not yet been approved according to the new standard (as stated in the owner's manual and brochures), then your issue is irrelevant.
My AXR is, according to the instructions, only approved for use with the older standard. According to information from Volkswagen, I am not allowed to use the BD unit, which is certified according to EU standards. There is no approval test available for it.

Quote:

- The purchase agreement doesn't necessarily have to state that the vehicle has four wheels, but it is still implicitly assumed.

The comparison is flawed because a car without four wheels is not functional. The BD approval is an additional feature.

Quote:

If biodiesel approval is confirmed, one would reasonably expect that it applies to the current standard.

Definitely NO!
The standard is included in the manual, and the approval only applies to that specific document.
The EN standard is not being implemented as a replacement for the old German preliminary standard. If it were, you would be correct. That's the key point.

Quote:

It is important to me that SEAT customers who refuel with biodiesel are aware of the fact described above.

Your statement is completely correct, but it doesn't only apply to SEAT.

Sure, I'll translate the text from German to English for you. Please provide the text you would like me to translate.
Audi, Volkswagen, and Škoda. Valid for all vehicles from the model year 2004 onwards.
FAME upgrade kits are available from the factory as an optional extra for an additional cost.

Let's summarize:

(I) The new standard DIN EN 14214 is stricter than the preliminary standard E DIN 51606, and therefore supersedes it.

(II) For fuel of a new standard, an explicit approval is always necessary, even if it exceeds the old standard regarding minimum requirements for certain quality criteria.

Conclusion:

Those who refuel with Shell V-Power Diesel may also lose their warranty, as this fuel adheres to at least a Shell-specific standard that does not comply with the German DIN standard for diesel fuel.

SeatArosa1.7SDI wrote:

Let's keep in mind: (I) The new standard DIN EN 14214 is stricter than the preliminary standard E DIN 51606, and therefore supersedes it.

Yes!

Quote:

(II) For fuel of a new standard, an explicit approval is always necessary, even if it exceeds the old standard regarding minimum requirements for certain quality criteria.

Yes!

Quote:

Conclusion: Those who refuel with Shell V-Power Diesel also lose the warranty, because at least one Shell-specific standard exists for this fuel, which does not comply with the DIN standard for diesel fuel.

No!

In addition to meeting Shell's own standards, Shell V-Power also complies with the DIN EN 590 standard (although Shell has claimed this).


@Dirk_S

http://www.autobild.de/suche/artikel.php?artikel_id=5081

That's all regarding the topic of "" being affected.

In addition to Shell's own standards, Shell V-Power also complies with the DIN EN 590 standard (at least, that is what Shell has claimed).

Then all that's needed is for the authorities to confirm that the DIN EN 14214 also complies with the former E DIN 51606. It's just a formality, right?