Longlife III | Posts 16+

Hi Julian,

Quote:

B5 states that the HTHS should be 3.5 mPa*s.

Although I know you shouldn't contradict administrators, I have to correct you: B5 states: Performance similar to B4, but with a reduced HTHS viscosity (i.e., HTHS viscosity like B1 at (2.9 - 3.5 mPa*s), extended intervals, and fuel savings.
There should be corresponding information about it somewhere among the oil brands.

Where did you get the information that the HTHS value for B5 fuel is supposedly 3.5 mPa*s? While it's theoretically possible for a B5 fuel to have an HTHS value close to 3.5, I'm not aware of any such product. The HTHS values are all close to 3.

Quote:

Your linked oils barely achieve an HTHS value > 3.5 (which is 3.5, so I'm not really seeing the benefits regarding... Do not include HTHS.

See my statement at the beginning of this post: B5 oils could theoretically have an HTHS of 3.5. However, in practice, they are far from that. An oil classified as B4 will definitely have an HTHS (High-Temperature High-Shear) viscosity of more than 3.5.

Quote:

In particular, LL-III oils according to B3/B4 may contain lower-quality base oils than those according to B5.

What makes a good base oil? In my opinion, it's an oil that has a high viscosity index (VI) and a high HTHS (high-temperature/high-shear) value, even without additives, exhibits low volatility, and can effectively keep particles suspended. And because of the low HTHS value of the B5 oils, the base oils probably aren't very good.
What you probably mean is: There are oils that meet the VW 507 00 specification, but are not fully synthetic oils, but rather semi-synthetic. I would also opt for a full synthetic oil here.

Quote:

I still need your proof/explanation that a low HTHS value increases internal engine wear. I also couldn't find anything really informative about it in the literature.

To understand this, consider what the HTHS value represents and how it is measured: A rotating cylinder is inserted into a bushing. The friction generated is a measure of the HTHS value. Therefore, it is a measure of the oil's shear stability. Imagine that two metallic components are sliding against each other in your engine under high pressure. With a low HTHS value, there is a greater likelihood that the oil molecules will be sheared, and the components will no longer be able to be separated. In that case, you can only hope that the additives in the oil are effective and can separate the components again. However, there are very few of these additives in a low-viscosity oil, because the properties of a low-viscosity oil..."It is important that these parameters change very little throughout the entire switching interval." Now it's clear why the HTHS value provides so much information about wear protection.

Quote:

Unfortunately, he only gave me an oil change after 50600

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Sure, there are also workshops that fill an RS4 with 503 0 oil. There are even oil manufacturers who allow their marketing department to claim that HC oils are superior to full synthetic oils. I just want to know how they make an HC oil that has a VI of 140 without any additives. And that value would be extremely bad for fully synthetic oil.
There's so much garbage being spread about oil. The manufacturers aren't making any exceptions, as you can only ever talk to their marketing people. If you really want to know what's in an oil, you need to ask the people who develop and analyze it.
Did you happen to read the article in the newspaper back then, the one with the four red letters? There was so much garbage in it that it really fits the level of this newspaper .

Quote:

One liter of oil for almost 25€ should be doable

.
I would be surprised if VW paid more than €5 for a liter. Such a gesture from VW is not friendly, but rather, strictly speaking, a way of ripping off customers.

@Oil source: There used to be one in Kuwait. I think they've all been deleted now. Seriously: I'll send you a private message in a few minutes.

Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"

B5 states: Performance similar to B4, but with a reduced HTHS viscosity (i.e., HTHS viscosity similar to B1, at (2.9 - 3.5 mPa*s)), extended service intervals, and fuel savings.
There should be corresponding information about it somewhere among the oil brands.


Hmm, my literature states that the value should be exactly 3.5, but online I keep finding information suggesting it has been 'reduced' and is 'comparable to B1.' It seems there's probably a typo in my literature. *pondering*

Here's a relatively good summary:



What is a good base oil? In my opinion, this is an oil that, without the addition of additives, has a high viscosity index (VI) and a high HTHS (high-temperature high-shear) value, exhibits low volatility, and is capable of effectively suspending particles.


Well, I was referring to the classification according to the ATIEL Group I-V. In this case, I would use a base oil made from polyalphaolefins (PAO) and various hydrocracked oils, with a low sulfur content and a high viscosity index (VI). However, that takes us too far away from the topic.


To understand this, consider what the HTHS value represents and how it is measured: A rotating cylinder is inserted into a bushing. The friction generated is a measure of the HTHS value. Therefore, it is a measure of the oil's shear stability. Imagine that two metallic components are sliding against each other in your engine under high pressure. With a low HTHS value, there is a greater likelihood that the oil molecules will be sheared, and the components will no longer be able to be separated. In that case, you can only hope that the additives in the oil are effective and can separate the components again. However, there are very few of these additives in a low-viscosity oil, because the properties of a low-viscosity oil...'It is important that these parameters change very little throughout the entire switching interval.' Now it's clear why the HTHS value provides so much information about wear protection.


The HTHS value determines the viscosity of the oil at 150°C. The lower the HTHS value, the more 'fluid' the oil is at that temperature.
'In my opinion, a special oil with a low HTHS (High-Temperature High-Shear) value was developed for PD engines, because the high surface pressure between...' The wear scar measurements and kinematic viscosity degradation of the oil film in conventional synthetic oils (with a high HTHS value) indicated a breakdown of the oil film, leading to significant wear.
A lower HTHS value ensures a constant and pressure-resistant oil film between these two components.


Sure, there are also workshops that will fill an RS4 with 503 00 fuel.


Yes, they are supposed to have a long-life capability, but they actually receive normal synthetic oil, just like in the RS6.


Did you happen to read the article in the newspaper back then, the one with the four red letters? There was so much garbage in it that it really fits the level of this newspaper .


No, I don't read that newspaper (if you mean 'Bild'). http://www.lethen.de/bilder/spezifikationen.pdf

Hi Julian,

it's like being in a chat room here

Yes, I'm afraid there seems to be an error in your literature.

Do you work at Lethen? Are these specifications from Fuchs-Petrolub?
I only found a summary of the standards from Motul quickly.

Quote:

And once again, I must express my dismay at the fact that Motul declares the B5 standard to be the "highest" one. B5 is not the standard that sets the highest requirements for an oil; rather, it is the standard that was approved most recently.

In this case, I would use a base oil made from polyalphaolefins (PAO) and various hydrocracked oils.
The sentence is missing the predicate. What do you want to express with the sentence? Are you saying that you prefer an oil that is a fully synthetic oil with the addition of HC (hydrocarbon) components?
I would prefer to use a good, full synthetic oil and forgo the HC content

Quote:

.

The HTHS value determines the viscosity of the oil at 150°C.

Quote:

The HTHS value is an inherent property of the oil. It's not about the interaction between the molecules (which eventually leads to viscosity), but about the stability of the molecules themselves. The lower the HTHS value, the faster the molecules break down under shear stress! The molecules that have broken down are, so to speak, "disabled" afterward. Of course, this is undesirable, which is why the HTHS value should be as high as possible. (Fuel savings are fine, but not at the expense of the oil's performance).

In my opinion, a special oil with a low HTHS value was produced specifically for PD engines.

Quote:

No, thankfully not. For PD engines that were not Longlife (LL) compatible, there was/is the VW 505 01 specification. All oils meeting the 505 01 specification have a High-Temperature/High-Shear (HTHS) value according to B3, which is at least 3.5. It was only when VW introduced the WIV (Warm-up Viscosity Index) requirement that the 506 01 specification had to be introduced. All oils meeting the 506 01 specification have a reduced HTHS (High-Temperature High-Shear) value due to the fuel-saving potential. However, VW has apparently realized that the step back to reduced HTHS viscosity was a mistake. That's why the 507 00 specification has been in place since last year. Fortunately, these oils now have a "normal" HTHS value of at least 3.5 again.

...due to the high surface pressure between. The wear and extreme pressure (EP) additives in conventional synthetic oil (with a high HTHS value) can break down, leading to increased wear.
Partially correct, partially incorrect: In reality, the surface pressure in positive displacement (PD) engines places special demands on the oil. It is incorrect to say that an oil with a low HTHS value allows for higher surface pressure.
By the way: The surface pressure that an oil can withstand is not measured, but is determined through engine testing http://www.motul.de/i/prd/ccmc.htm.

The RS4 should (like the RS6) have received the 503 01 designation: High possible surface pressure and HTHS above 3.5 .
I don't want to know what kinds of mistakes workshops are making with oil refills.

Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"

This whole discussion about longlife oil is reaching insane proportions, and the average diesel driver is completely confused by all the specifications that have been introduced in recent years. There are now countless discussions about which oil is the right one for my diesel and whether longlife oil is worth it for my vehicle. My Passat is not designed for longlife oil, and I change my engine oil every 15,000 km because that's the safe option, and the cost is within a normal range. A good, approved 5W40 oil, with 5 liters, is more than enough for the time until the next oil change, including topping up during that period. The whole thing costs a reasonable and manageable 20 euros, and that's good enough. Why bother worrying about 'when will my service interval indicator light up' or 'how fuel-efficient can I drive to reach 30,000 km.' Just switch to fixed intervals, use cheaper oil, or even change the oil yourself at home to save on workshop costs. In my opinion, the whole thing is a marketing strategy designed to further bind customers to their own workshops.

Well... it's not that simple, either. With the introduction of the two Longlife standards, the confusion comes to an end.

As long as I'm still within the warranty period, I try to do everything I can to avoid taking the car to the workshop as much as possible. And since I can get about 36,000 km with the long-life oil this time, I won't be changing that anytime soon. The liter of Longlife III oil costs me €8.50 including shipping, which totals €34. That's cheaper than your 15,000km service.

Furthermore, this is not about the pros and cons of longlife oil in general, but specifically about the 5W-30 Longlife III oil.

Hi,

I see it the same way as Julian: I want VW to rarely see my car under the warranty. And if they do, I'll be standing right there (because at least detached trim pieces will be replaced, if you insist, and not just glued back on). As soon as the warranty period is over, I switch to 15,000-mile intervals (because the available oils are simply much better!).

But it's not just about Julian, hb2000, and me. High-mileage drivers who cover over 50,000 km per year will continue to use WIV oil to avoid having to visit a VW dealership every month. For these drivers, a recommendation for good long-life oil is important. And that's why Julian and I discussed everything so thoroughly.
And if Julian writes another post, I'm sure the discussion will continue here, as long as it remains factual.

Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"

hb2000 wrote:

... Convert your euro machine to fixed maintenance intervals, use cheaper oil, or even change the oil yourself at home to save on workshop costs.

...so that you have to change the oil twice a year instead of once?
Great strategy!
LL2 oil is no longer significantly more expensive than a good quality PD oil these days.
The financial disadvantage of LL (likely referring to a specific product or service) has been a non-issue for a long time (unless you go to a particular vendor).

Quote:

I believe that the whole thing is a marketing strategy to further bind customers to their own workshops.

No, it is not. Then, VW would have completely eliminated the fixed interval.

Three years ago, I was able to read an oil analysis that clearly showed that the oil, which had been in the engine for 50,000 km, still had significantly better remaining lubricating properties than a standard PD oil after only 15,000 km in the same engine.
The comparative test was conducted under laboratory conditions on a test bench. The result surprised me a lot at the time. A compression test of the engine was not performed.
LL2 oils, by the way, are definitely not at the end of their lifespan after 50,000 km.

@ hb2000 and Bertil:

Please be so kind and continue the discussion here; this thread should primarily be about Longlife III.

And if Julian writes another post, then this discussion will likely continue here, as long as it remains factual.

Which LL-III oil would you recommend based on your experience? Is it important to distinguish between fully synthetic and partially synthetic oils?

Mobil 1 SHC 5W-30? (HTHS 3.5
BP Visco 7000 LL-III 5W-30? (HTHS?)
Castrol TopUp Longlife III? (HTHS 3.50)
...
Please provide the text you would like me to translate from German to English.
Please provide the text you would like me to translate from German to English.

I haven't found any others yet; so far, I've only come across the products mentioned above. Divinol and DBV are not quite there yet.

Julian wrote:

... I haven't found any others yet; so far, I've only come across the products mentioned above. Divinol and DBV are not quite there yet.

Liqui Moly TOP TEC 4200
Aral SuperTronic LongLife III
...

Hi,

It's a tricky thing to recommend a specific oil: I've had excellent experiences with both LM and Mobil 1 (and they both lived up to the theoretical promises stated in their datasheets).
However, I'm not entirely sure if the 5W-30 is actually fully synthetic. There's a possibility that VW (similar to Opel) is increasingly relying on HC (hydrocarbon) based oils, possibly to slightly improve their own profit margins. Unfortunately, reliable information on this is understandably difficult to obtain. I'm working on it .
All Mobil 1 oils are fully synthetic, with the exception of one. I hope that the ESP Formula will follow this tradition. Otherwise, it might have been better to sell the ESP Formula as regular motor oil .

Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"

Okay, so TopTec is based on HC-cracked oils, and I haven't found anything useful about Aral related to that.

Mobil 1 is fully synthetic.

It would be great if we could create a comprehensive comparison of HTHS values and synthetic formulations here. However, it can be difficult for the average person to obtain, especially because some of these oils are relatively new to the market.

Hi,

How do you know that Mobil 1 is fully synthetic? Do you have a link to that?

Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"

According to your statement and the label printing. Or have I misunderstood?

Hi,

@Julian:
Yes, you misunderstood, or I may have expressed myself unclearly. See:

Quote:

However, I'm not entirely sure if the 5W-30 is actually fully synthetic.

I should have figured it out myself, but I didn't: Mobil 1 is a partially synthetic oil (containing an HC component), which I just learned from a reliable source. It's a shame that we keep experiencing setbacks due to short-sighted profit-driven thinking.
If I need to find out more details about the oil, I will get in touch.

Regards,
Micha.

P.S.: I have corrected a mistake I made in the post above. I hope it wasn't him who confused you.

Hi everyone,

So, the new "SuperSyn" additive package from Mobil 1 will unfortunately not be used in the ESP Formula. Sorry, I was really looking forward to having genuine Mobil 1 in my engine .

Regards,
Sure, here is the translation of the text from German to English:

"Micha"