Leistungsvergleich Bora 130PS - Passat 130PS | Posts 32+

Hi,


Sure?

Okay, then take a look at the Ibiza 6L. 1000 RPM in 6th gear is a REAL 60 km/h - I don't know of any 5-speed TDI that has such a long 5th gear. They all have speeds between 44 and 47 km/h at 1000 RPM.




I think Julian is right.
Nobody gets it here!

Is this engine also available with a 5-speed transmission in this Ibiza model?
I don't think so.
So, what can we do with your statement that it runs at 60 units with a speed of 1000 RPM?
Nothing!

Regards,
Sausage blinkers.

Hi,

Yes, the statement is actually useful.

All the 5-speed transmissions in TDI cars that I know of are designed in such a way that the car reaches its maximum speed in 5th gear, with the engine speed being significantly above 4000 RPM. I would consider this to be the typical VAG 5-speed transmission setup.

The 6-speed gearbox I mentioned, which comes from the Ibi, is different because, at its maximum speed, it doesn't reach its top gear (6th gear).

"There really isn't a 5-speed option, but I understood Julian to mean that the design specifications for the 6th gear in a 6-speed transmission are the same as those for the 5th gear in a 5-speed transmission."

It seems this also applies to VW cars, but not to the mentioned Ibiza, where it's more likely a 5+E configuration (apparently, some reports claim that the maximum speed can be reached in 5th gear, although not all reports confirm this).

Best regards,

Jan.

Thank you, Wurstblinker!

@Jan6k:

Es geht nicht darum, was Du kennst und wie lang Dein Ibi übersetzt ist. Allgemein hast Du EINEN Motor. Mit einer definierten LEISTUNG. Wenn Du nun 6 statt 5 Gänge verbaust, hast Du die gleiche Endgeschwindigkeit, die Drehzahlsprünge werden nur kleiner zw. den Gängen. Der Motor gibt @4000U/min seine Leistung ab und da muß auch ungefähr die Topspeed liegen. Also wäre es unsinnig, das 6gang länger zu übersetzen. Ist das Understandable?
Normally, you simply shorten the differential ratio slightly, which makes it easier to incorporate the additional gear.
'In the case of my A4, the first two gears had a significantly shorter gear ratio, but for example, at 160 km/h, both gears are at approximately 3000 RPM.'
I had a similar experience with a Passat (the model before the facelift) with an AJM engine and a 5-speed transmission. Later, he bought one with a 6-speed transmission (for his father), and it was otherwise the same, with the same gearing, just one more gear.

If the lower gears have a shorter translation, that's already an advantage, at least in city and dense rural traffic. When constantly starting in traffic jams, the clutch appreciates every fewer gear. Not to mention the "comfort-oriented" .

Roger wrote:

Not to mention the "property speculation" faction .

Thank you very much .

The 5th gear on the G4 is actually a bit too long for use with a trailer (and the 4th gear is too short for sustained use).

HELLO!!

You're almost starting to argue now, because everyone "believes" something different!

Can someone please bring the dishes to the table?

Okay, what are the gear ratios for the 5-speed and 6-speed Passat?

Then we finally have a definitive basis, upon which we can engage in a theological debate.

I "believe" that the 6th gear is longer than the 5th gear, but I would like to have proof or have this idea disproven.

Thank you.
m;

I once had a PDF from Seat that listed all of their models.

'And if you look at the 5-speed cars, they would do about 50 km/h at 1000 RPM, while the 6-speed transmissions would do about 60 km/h at 1000 RPM. So, in that respect, I think Jan is right. The engines weren't exactly the same, but I don't think that's a crucial factor in this context. They were all 4-cylinder TDIs.'

Or what is not to be understood or wrongly thought about?

Regards,
arne

For the actual gear ratios:
http://www.dieselschrauber.de/GKB.html

And engine-transmission coupling:
http://www.dieselschrauber.de/Getriebe_Main.html

@Rainer K.:
I only found these links indirectly. In the technical articles, I only found a corresponding link in Ulf's instructions for the ventilation calculator.

The MKB-GKB mapping is still relatively easy to find under https://community.dieselschrauber.org/en/viewtopic.php?t=3713,, but the link to the translations seems to have been lost.

Regards,
Private.

matthiasTDI96 wrote:

@ x world one Well, that's the case with mine, but look at it this way: my engine's RPM level is 10% lower than yours, and considering that my engine has a bit more standard power, it actually fits quite well together, especially if you assume that the 5th and 6th gears have roughly the same ratio

.

Sorry, my mistake. I had the scale wrong; it's 2400 RPM.
But I also have a really long 5th gear, it's an ASD transmission.

edit: I still think 10% is too little considering your higher performance, but I guess this works.

Hi,

@Julian: I didn't intend to attack you or anyone else... so I suggest we try to remove the aggressive tone together.

Quote:

It's not about what you know or how long your... well, you know.

Ich hab nur den Vorlaeufer.... mit 5 Gang und ohne den schoenen langen 6. Okay.

Quote:

Allgemein hast Du EINEN Motor. Mit einer definierten LEISTUNG. Wenn Du nun 6 statt 5 Gänge verbaust, hast Du die gleiche Endgeschwindigkeit, die Drehzahlsprünge werden nur kleiner zw. den Gängen. Der Motor gibt @4000U/min seine Leistung ab und da muß auch ungefähr die Topspeed liegen. Also wäre es unsinnig, das 6gang länger zu übersetzen. Ist das Understandable?

Sure, both in terms of wording and content, but that wasn't my point.

Who says that a 6-speed gearbox *must* reach its maximum speed in 6th gear? If you consider the 6th gear as an "economy" gear (as mentioned in the referenced Ibi), then it's perfectly possible to have a longer 6th gear. This doesn't affect the maximum speed, that's clear, but it lowers the overall engine speed at reasonable highway speeds.

More specifically, there are cars (using the Ibi as an example again) where the 5th and 6th gears achieve roughly the same speed. The reason is quite clear: in 5th gear, the engine is already exceeding its maximum power RPM (Pmax), while in 6th gear, it's slightly below - therefore, it produces roughly the same power (which is LESS than Pmax!) at the same speed. Of course, the car could be made faster by lengthening the 5th gear or shortening the 6th gear, but apparently, that's not what was done in this example (I suspect it's due to design choices - the Ibi shouldn't be able to go too fast).

That's actually what I was trying to convey with my statements, sorry if it didn't come across that way.

If the goal is to achieve the highest possible top speed in the highest gear, then I completely agree with you; that's the only way to do it. However, I used that example to show that this isn't always the goal.

Personally, I think the idea of a "comfort gear" is excellent. The design should be such that the car shifts into 5th gear at the point where it reaches its maximum speed, meaning that at Vmax, the engine is at its maximum power output. The 6th gear, on the other hand, should be a longer gear, allowing for lower engine speeds (although it might not allow the car to reach its maximum speed). I believe this is more important than a more finely graded gear ratio, but that's just my personal opinion.

Best regards,

Jan.

And I've already found a mistake!

Das 4T hat ne mech. Clutch!!

It was the long-stroke 5-speed gearbox with a long shaft, used in the G2 Turbo Diesel (with the same gear ratios as the 4-cylinder naturally aspirated engine in the G2).

m;

PrivatBereich wrote:

For the actual gear ratios: http://www.dieselschrauber.de/GKB.html And engine-transmission coupling: http://www.dieselschrauber.de/Getriebe_Main.html @Rainer K.: I only found these links indirectly. In the technical articles, I only found a corresponding link in Ulf's instructions for the ventilation calculator. The MKB-GKB mapping is still relatively easy to find under https://community.dieselschrauber.org/en/viewtopic.php?t=3713,, but the link to the translations seems to have been lost. Regards, Private

https://community.dieselschrauber.org/en/viewtopic.php?t=3129

Hmm, could it be that you're focusing on something irrelevant? As Julian already mentioned, a 5-speed gearbox will almost always have a similar gear ratio in its top gear to a 6-speed gearbox (with the exception of 5+E). Driving with a 6-speed gearbox takes practice (it's not as simple as with a 5-speed gearbox) and can even put more strain on the clutch (if you shift through every gear – it feels like driving a truck). With a 6-speed gearbox, you have to skip gears (1st, then 2nd, then 4th, or rev out 2nd and go straight to 5th; you have a choice, or you can even go straight from 1st to 6th – which is really hardcore). By the way: My 105 hp Touran with a 6-speed gearbox revs at almost exactly the same speed as my 5-speed Passat with the 1Z engine at 100 km/h (Touran: 6th gear, Passat: 5th gear). You just have the ideal gear for every purpose (I usually drive in 5th gear in the city in the Touran).

Precision: When it comes to precision, Volkswagen is actually unbeatable (at least in the cars I've driven so far). No other manufacturer's gearbox shifts with such precision (and in my Passat, it's also incredibly smooth). Only the gear lever of the Golf IV 1.6 16V felt wobbly during gear changes, but despite that, the gearbox shifted precisely (and for me, that also includes the fact that the gear lever doesn't feel loose or wobbly).

Best regards, WarLord.

Hi,

Quote:

With a 6-speed gearbox, you sometimes have to skip gears.

I actually always do that with my 5-speed gearbox, but I rarely shift linearly.

Quote:

Hmm, are you guys focusing on something specific?

I wouldn't see it that way... rather, it's a discussion about the different possibilities for tuning a 6-speed gearbox and where those methods are applied.

Best regards,

Jan.

If I want to skip gears on my 5-speed transmission, I have to rev the engine properly first (otherwise, I'll end up at 1,000 RPM). So, I shift earlier and go through each gear (revving up to 2,000 RPM before shifting).

Best regards, WarLord.

Hi Warlord,

I tend to do this especially when the engine is warm, and I accelerate a bit harder, because that's sometimes necessary when driving in the city to prevent the VTG (variable turbine geometry) from seizing up.

"In the third gear, it goes up to 60-70 mph, and then immediately shifts into the fifth gear (in the third gear, it's around 2400-2800 RPM), or in the "brutal" version, it goes up to almost 4000 RPM in the second gear, and then shifts into the fifth gear."

The other option is that I like to accelerate slightly from 2nd to 3rd gear in 30 km/h zones, and then shift into 4th gear, where it continues at idle speed.

With a cold engine, I accelerate linearly, but I shift gears around 1500 RPM, which puts me just above 1000 RPM in the next gear.

Best regards,

Jan.