Golf IV TDI 66KW ALH WARMSTARTPROBLEME | Posts 48+

Hi,

I would clarify other LMM values with other AGR control settings - this has a huge impact on the amount of air.

Best regards,

Jan

Does an increased fuel injection amount also mean an increased fuel consumption?

Why is this done in the first place? Perhaps to ensure that the specified engine power is still maintained despite losses caused by the automatic transmission?

If so, does that mean more power with a manual transmission?

[quote='chris2605x']
Does an increased fuel injection amount also mean an increased fuel consumption?

Why is this done in the first place? Perhaps to ensure that the specified engine power is still maintained despite losses caused by the automatic transmission?

If so, does that mean more power with a manual transmission?
Hi,
the converter in an automatic transmission 'whines' even when no gear is engaged, and the hydraulic pump also takes up some torque!
Best regards,
Günther

Warm-start problems with the ALH engine, like with almost any other, usually have only one cause: No fuel is being released! The causes are extremely diverse due to the complexity of the EDC15 and the possibility of hardware failures, and a thorough analysis of all causes would fill volumes. Everything else is just speculation.

If there is no increase in engine speed when the starter is activated, meaning the EDC speed is the same as the starter speed, then no fuel injection will occur on any cylinder. This is an indication of a missing fuel injection release in the EDC. The causes for this are limited. Often, it is a "delayed" synchronization of the crankshaft and VP, as tolerances in the sender gear (temperature!) can affect the signal quality. The statement that errors are eliminated when coding for automatic transmissions could support this theory, as the speed signals are evaluated differently due to different sender gears - but there could also be a thousand other reasons, as the automatic transmission data differs significantly from a manual transmission. However, the EDC "bit" for "successful" synchronization cannot be measured with your "tools" because it is deeply buried in the engine control unit software architecture. Therefore, troubleshooting with the original ECU is not possible for VAG workshops and hobbyists, but it is an interesting task for the development departments of manufacturers, who are happy to deal with such field problems, but not for the old ALH.

I fear you will have to live with your warm-start problems, or hope for luck. Sorry.

@bafische:

Does the ALH with automatic transmission actually have a different drive gear than the manual transmission? I would be surprised by this, as it would undermine the policy of using the same parts.

Furthermore, I don't quite understand the purpose, as I don't see any difference in the speed measurement/resolution between the two variants that I mentioned. But perhaps you can explain it to us?

Best regards,
Alex

Okay, here's the translation, keeping the HTML/BBCode tags and URLs intact:

So, this morning I tested the coding in the vehicle.

I have found that the automatic coding is completely unsuitable.

Reason:

After the change, everything worked perfectly. After driving a few meters, my ESP lamp was constantly lit. According to the ABS/ESP control unit, the automatic control unit is not receiving a response and is going into fault mode.
The engine control unit shows the error 'No signal from Powertrain Bus'.
The errors can only be cleared if I reset the coding.

Conclusion:
Not recommended.

[quote="bafische"]If there is no increase in speed when the starter is activated, i.e., [b]the EDC speed is the same as the starter speed[/b]
, also auch auf keinen Zylinder findet eine Einspritzung statt. Dies ist ein Hinweis auf einen fehlenden Freigabestatus für die Einspritzung in der EDC.
Hm - how do you define the EDC RPM and starter RPM here?

According to my understanding, the EDC can only "see" the RPM that the starter brings the engine up to.

This would mean that EDC RPM = Starter RPM, and the TDI would never start?

Okay, I've picked up my car from the dealership. The new starter is actually proving to be quite effective. The warm-start problem is now definitely a thing of the past. The engine starts up much better than before. The new starter is indeed much faster than the old one. If anyone is interested, I can also post the article number and current price.

Finally, I can start my car properly again.

Okay, so it seems like the starter is the issue.

It's definitely clear that increasing the engine speed can be helpful. I could also imagine a combination of different causes, so that the amount of fuel injected also has an influence.

One thing I'd like to clarify: For me, this seems like a problem that specifically affects ALH engines, or where it's more pronounced?

The ALH has different injectors and therefore a higher fuel injection amount (compare to 110 HP TDI). Maybe this combination is particularly unfavorable for the ALH, where deviations (starter speed, fuel injection amount, injector wear, etc.) become more noticeable.

@wutz: Did you happen to look at the old starter or see it during the post-mortem analysis? Did the workshop also install new cables at the same time (to avoid resistance)?

I had previously read and worked through all the possible causes here, one by one. For example, I checked the basic settings, checked all the cables, and checked the battery. (See page 2 of this report). I had also removed the starter motor myself. The brushes looked perfect, everything was cleaned, greased, and reinstalled, but without any improvement. Since the starter motor was replaced, I unfortunately didn't get to see it. However, the workshop claims that the new starter motor has a higher speed than the old one.

Current mileage: 85,000 km, so it's not that much yet. The engine is in its original condition, with no tuning or anything like that, and it's only run on Dino Diesel.

[quote="ulf"][quote="bafische"]If there is no increase in speed when the starter is activated, i.e., [b]the EDC speed is the same as the starter speed[/b]
, also auch auf keinen Zylinder findet eine Einspritzung statt. Dies ist ein Hinweis auf einen fehlenden Freigabestatus für die Einspritzung in der EDC.
Hm - how do you define the EDC RPM and starter RPM here?

According to my understanding, the EDC can only "see" the RPM that the starter brings the engine up to.

This would mean that EDC RPM = Starter RPM, and the TDI would never start?
Okay, I understand. Please provide the German text you want me to translate. I will translate only the readable text, leaving the HTML tags, BBCode tags, and URLs as they are.
The EDC naturally receives its RPM information after a logic evaluation from the 60-2 wheel via the RPM sensor. The average engine RPM during starter activation without injection then, depending on the battery state, VTG position, air filter condition, oil temperature, etc., is around 250 RPM. This is the engine RPM that results from these parameters and the fixed gear ratio between the engine and starter. You should definitely be able to measure this with your diagnostic tools via the K-Line. That's what I mean by "starter RPM".

If you're talking about a delayed warm-up behavior of 4-5 seconds, I assume that no RPM increase occurs during this time, so the engine RPM remains at this averaged 250 RPM. In this case, the cause is likely the lack of injection.

However, if RPM increases do occur, this is of course something to rule out. In this case, you have other problems that are not related to RPM detection thresholds, etc.

[quote="bafische"]
If you're talking about delayed warm-up behavior, around 4-5 seconds, I assume that no increase in engine speed occurs during this time, so the engine speed remains at this averaged 250 RPM. In this case, the cause is likely due to the lack of fuel injection.
Okay, I understand. Please provide the German text you want me to translate. I will translate only the readable text, leaving the HTML tags, BBCode tags, and URLs as they are.
This still seems strange to me:

If the battery and starter motor only bring the engine up to, say, 250 rpm, and therefore nothing is injected initially - where would a sudden increase in the starter motor's power come from, which could then cause the EDC to finally inject something?

On the contrary, the battery discharge during organ playing is more likely to lead to a decrease in the starter motor's performance and therefore the engine speed, so TDIs should certainly never start

Or am I missing something here?

[quote="donalexo"]
@bafische:

Does the ALH with automatic transmission actually have a different drive gear than the manual transmission? I would be surprised by this, as it would undermine the policy of using the same parts.

Furthermore, I don't quite understand the purpose, as I don't see any difference in the speed measurement/resolution between the two variants that I mentioned. But perhaps you can explain it to us?

Best regards,
Alex
Okay, I understand. Please provide the German text you want me to translate. I will translate only the readable text, leaving the HTML tags, BBCode tags, and URLs as they are.
The drive wheels (flywheels!) are almost always different, due to the different moments of inertia of the clutch or converter. However, that's a different topic.
What's important is whether the clearance between the sensor and the tooth on the 60-2 gear is different. This is often the case, and if I don't want to get into the specifics of the ALH, then I need different settings for the evaluation logic of the DZG. Here, the cause could be suspected: the "warm start" problem no longer occurred in the automatic encoding. (As in a previous post). Because the thermodynamic setting for "warm start" is the same for both manual and automatic transmissions. Therefore, my suspicion.

[quote="ulf"][quote="bafische"]
If you're talking about delayed warm-up behavior, around 4-5 seconds, I assume that no increase in engine speed occurs during this time, so the engine speed remains at this averaged 250 RPM. In this case, the cause is likely due to the lack of fuel injection.
Okay, I understand. Please provide the German text you want me to translate. I will translate only the readable text, leaving the HTML tags, BBCode tags, and URLs as they are.
This still seems strange to me:

If the battery and starter motor only bring the engine up to, say, 250 rpm, and therefore nothing is injected initially - where would a sudden increase in the starter motor's power come from, which could then cause the EDC to finally inject something?

On the contrary, the battery discharge during organ playing is more likely to lead to a decrease in the starter motor's performance and therefore the engine speed, so TDIs should certainly never start

Or am I missing something here?
Okay, I understand. Please provide the German text you want me to translate. I will translate only the readable text, leaving the HTML tags, BBCode tags, and URLs as they are.
Okay, here's the translation:

I'm giving it a try.

The starter motor, in principle, has nothing to do with the starting process. The starter's power output is also not increased (and why?). The fuel injection timing also doesn't directly relate to engine speed; this depends on other parameters.

The engine's initial acceleration (starting) to idle speed only occurs through energy conversion in the combustion chamber. The starter motor in a diesel engine only provides the necessary conditions in the combustion chamber, namely pressure and temperature, which are directly proportional to the engine speed when the starter is activated.

Just for information, the current engine speed during pure starter operation is approximately between 150 and 350 RPM, depending on the load. This means that the EDC threshold for fuel injection timing (which is usually around 50 RPM) is not the issue.

One more thing: my previous analysis assumes that all obvious sources of error have already been checked and eliminated, such as the starter motor, battery, compression, fuel injection system, etc., and that conventional methods are no longer effective. If someone is trying to start a direct injection system with a weak starter (for example, the starter motor's initial speed only reaches 150 RPM), then there's no need to ask further questions.

[quote="bafische"]The engine startup (starting) to idling speed only occurs through energy conversion in the combustion chamber. The starter motor only provides the necessary ignition conditions in the combustion chamber for a diesel engine.[/quote]
Okay, so you mean by "Start" the successful (and controlled) injection of fuel that allows the engine to run from the starting speed to the normal operating speed?
Just for information, the current engine speed during purely starting operation is approximately between 150 and 350 RPM, i.e., the EDC threshold for fuel injection (which is usually around 50 RPM) is not the problem.
So, you mean the "uiuiuiu" sound when playing the organ, where "u" represents approximately 150 rpm and "i" represents approximately 350 rpm?

And the EDC (Electronic Control) typically starts injecting when the difference between "u" and "i" is at least 50 rpm?

Sorry if I'm asking in a rather descriptive way, but since you seem to have a good understanding of the subject, I'd like to phrase my questions in a way that's more familiar to you.

[quote="ulf"][quote="bafische"]The engine start-up (starting) to idle speed occurs only through energy conversion in the combustion chamber. The starter only provides the necessary ignition conditions in the combustion chamber for a diesel engine.[/quote]
Okay, so you mean by "Start" the successful (and controlled) injection of fuel that allows the engine to run from the starting speed to the normal operating speed?
Just for information, the current engine speed during purely starting operation is approximately between 150 and 350 RPM, i.e., the EDC threshold for fuel injection (which is usually around 50 RPM) is not the problem.
So, you mean the "uiuiuiu" sound when playing the organ, where "u" represents approximately 150 rpm and "i" represents approximately 350 rpm?

And the EDC (Electronic Control) typically starts injecting when the difference between "u" and "i" is at least 50 rpm?

Sorry if I'm asking in a rather descriptive way, but since you seem to have a good understanding of the subject, I'd like to phrase my questions in a way that's more familiar to you.
Okay, I understand. Please provide the German text you want me to translate. I will translate only the readable text, leaving the HTML tags, BBCode tags, and URLs as they are.
Hey, that's exactly what I meant! The difference between "u" and "i" doesn't matter, as long as the "u" doesn't fall under 50 RPM several times, and the black box from Bosch knows that there's a "u" there.

But don't focus too much on the RPMs.

If someone really has a problem where "uiuiuiuiuiiu" appears for 4 seconds or longer with a warm engine, and the "uiuiuiuiuiiu" is always at a constant RPM, they can definitely reach out - this thread is supposed to be helpful!