Einspritzpumpen und Tuning (größere Förderkolben) | Posts 48+

Hi,

I hope my input isn't too unqualified, as I don't really know the details.
I have one MSG.
From a purely logical standpoint, it's clear that MSG "doesn't know" anything about the actual...
Funding amount. There has to be a lookup table somewhere that specifies things like "3.8V pump voltage = 43 mg/H," and ideally, it should also be speed-dependent.
At this point, it should be clear whether the nozzles make a difference or not.
If the AGR reading shows "3.8V = 38mg/H" and the AFN reading shows "3.8V = 43mg/H", then the influence of the injectors is clearly evident.

@stefan, since you obviously have a deeper understanding of the subject, what do you think about it?

Best regards, Frank.

Stefan wrote:

...so, how can an AGR engine with .205 injectors achieve the same power output as a 110 horsepower engine, even though the engine control unit reduces the fuel quantity by 5mg/H? It would be great if someone could explain that to me.

Hi Stefan,

The quantity values are calculated by the ECU based on the RWG voltage. Therefore, they are not the actual values. The actual injection values are higher than the displayed values when larger nozzles are installed.
This means that the 90PS STG (presumably a tuning device) automatically shows a slightly lower value, because it doesn't "know" about the larger injectors (which allow for a greater fuel flow). However, if you were to measure the effective amount, you would find that both injectors (almost) show the same injection amount, even though they display (significantly) different values in the diagnostic readings.

I hope I managed to convey that somewhat clearly.

Sorry for the interruption.

Quote:

Gremlin wrote the following:: The 1Z unit has the old pump with potentiometer feedback from the actuator. This is the first row of the VP37-EDC series.

Quote:

Bertil: There's also the HDK 1Z (I believe starting with model year 95). Mine already had an HDK pump.

I also thought that the first 1Z models had potentiometers, and later models had coils.

Isn't that also recognizable by looking at the pump connector? Round vs. oval?

MJ 96, 1-way, with oval connector.

@bertil:

I'm not talking about the quantity shown in the 1552 document.
The engine control unit calculates the amount of fuel to inject based on various factors (air mass, intake air temperature, oil temperature, engine speed, etc.), correct? Correct!
Then, various parameters determine whether this amount of fuel should be injected (transmission protection, opacity, etc.). When the control unit finally 'tells' the ESP to inject 38mg/H, it will do so. We'll leave the technical process aside for now. So, if the pump delivers 38mg, it doesn't matter whether there are 0.185, 0.205, 0.216, or no injectors attached at the back.
How can more than 38mg/H come out of the nozzle if the ESP (Electrostatic Precipitator) is not capable of providing more?
Certainly, it's not as simple as I've presented. Due to various other factors (e.g., pressure build-up in the lines, residual storage), the actual amount injected is likely slightly higher. However, we've also observed this effect with larger nozzles, so the actual difference in the injected amount ultimately amounts to approximately 5mg/H.

In practice, it looks like this:

If I take an AGR engine and measure 90 horsepower, and then install the .205 injectors, I might measure 102-105 horsepower. If I then install the 110 horsepower engine control unit (ECU), I can easily reach 110 horsepower.
I have already converted several engines from 90 horsepower to 110 horsepower, and I was able to confirm in practice that the results were exactly as expected.

Let's leave it at that. The main question of the topic should be clarified.
We are already starting exactly what I was worried about before: nitpicking over every tenth of a millimeter.

@frank:

Not quite.
There is something called a 'pump voltage characteristic curve.' This curve contains the actual voltage values of the pump. For both the 90 hp and 110 hp models, the maximum values are approximately 3.85 volts. However, the curve leading up to that maximum value is different for each model.
This also confirms the statement that the ESP (Electronic Stability Program) must be the same for the 90 hp and 110 hp models.

Stefan wrote:

... If I take an AGR engine and measure 90 horsepower, and then install the .205 injectors, I might measure 102-105 horsepower. If I then install the 110 horsepower engine control unit (ECU), I can easily reach 110 horsepower. I have already converted several engines from 90 horsepower to 110 horsepower, and I was able to confirm in practice that the results were exactly as expected.

That's also what I meant. Unfortunately, that exact statement was lost in my previous post... Damn. Computers

@Stefan

Okay, and what does the pump voltage depend on in this pump voltage characteristic curve?
from mg/H and RPM?

no. it depends on the engine speed and load.
The mg/H (fuel quantity) results from that.
The higher the pump voltage, the more fuel (mg/H) is consumed.

"The higher the pump pressure, the more fuel (mg/H) is consumed."

I already knew that, but if mg/H is used in all the other fields, then...
There must be some relationship between pump voltage and flow rate (mg/H) somewhere.

Sure, there's a conversion factor for that.
But I think that's going too far now. You'll understand that...
I'm not going to reveal all the details.

Stefan wrote:

... you will understand that... I don't reveal all the details.

.... you actually already have, but you need to sort through your statements and think about it a bit more .... it's listed in E-B tomorrow

"but I think that's going too far now. You'll understand that..."
"I don't reveal all the details."

Well, I guess I have to...

Do you still know if the factor is the same for AGR and AFN?

"Edit"
Okay, here's something completely different: I'm currently dealing with a slipping clutch.
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get anything upgraded yet for mine, and the conversion to...
"The 6-speed transmission with the larger clutch seems like too much work. Could you give me some advice based on your modifications (or maybe even send me a quote via private message?) Thanks."

... you will understand that...
I don't reveal all the details.

.... you actually already have, but you need to sort through your statements and think about it a bit more .... it's listed in E-B tomorrow

Hey everyone.

This is disgusting. I find it appalling that some people openly share their knowledge here, while others are only thinking about how to make money from it, one way or another.

That's why very few people here say anything that's truly interesting.

No, thank you. It's best to just keep quiet in that situation.

Mirco

Hello everyone!

I believe that many people do not understand the relationship between the RWG voltage, the actual injection quantity, and the theoretical injection quantity.

The actual, effective, geometric lifting capacity of the pump is determined by the RWG voltage of the flow control valve, as specified by the EDC.
If the characteristic curves for the RWG voltage are the same for the AGR and AFN systems, then it means that the EDC (Electronic Diesel Control) provides the same control signals to the pump's MSW (Motor Steuergerät - Engine Control Unit) under the same operating conditions (load, speed, boost pressure, temperature, etc.).
IMO, the theoretical fuel injection quantity displayed by the control unit is determined solely by a conversion factor that takes into account the characteristics of the fuel injectors.

randomly chosen example for clarification:

AGR: RWG voltage 3.0 V -> theoretical amount: 32 mg/H.
AFN: RWG voltage 3.0 V -> theoretical amount: 38 mg/H.

If you install larger nozzles on such an engine, the MSG (presumably a control unit) will not be aware of this and will not adjust the conversion factor to match the new hydraulic settings. The displayed theoretical amount does not change.
However, the actual amount of fuel injected increases because the nozzle opening diameter is larger.

If Stefan's statement is correct, that the characteristic maps for the RWG voltage, boost pressure, etc. are the same for the AGR and AFN engines, then the only software-related difference is simply the conversion factor that accounts for the nozzle diameter. Specifically, the scaling factors for the boundary markers should also have been adjusted to maintain consistent proportions overall.

I can only imagine the following reasons why a 90 horsepower engine with 205 injectors might not reach 110 horsepower:

1. The voltage distribution patterns are different.
2. The boundary field identifiers differ, even when taking the conversion/scaling factor into account.
3. Downward series scattering.

I would appreciate insightful comments on my statements.

@Stefan:
If you don't want to share your information here, I understand. However, I haven't actually added any new information, but rather I've simply presented all the previously mentioned facts in a (hopefully) more understandable way and drawn conclusions from them.

Regards,
Alex.

Hi,

Quote:

This is disgusting. I find it repulsive that some people openly share their knowledge here, while others are only thinking about how to make money from it, one way or another.

@Mirco: I hope you understand that neither Bertil nor any of the other professionals who post here have any intention of doing that.

Bertil's statement was more along the lines of saying that too much has already been said, to the point where someone reading this might actually be able to make money from it.

You can see how such things happen, not least from the example of the tuning boxes for PD engines. You are right that it's a disgrace, and these people should also be sued for copyright infringement, but as long as there are people who buy this kind of thing from shady sources, it won't be possible to effectively combat it.

Best regards,

Jan.

@alex

if you mean me exactly as you described, that's how I understood it as well.
presented in such a precise way that I thought there wasn't a fixed conversion factor.
but possibly one that is dependent on the speed, and which is also stored in a kind of lookup table.

My whole series of (unexplainable?) questions was triggered because Stefan was so...
based on the difference of the 5mg/H max. Funding volume for AGR/AFN license plates.
passed, regardless of the nozzles.

Best regards, Frank.

Stefan wrote:

If I take an AGR engine and measure a power output of 90 horsepower, and then install the .205 injectors, I might measure 102-105 horsepower.

Hi,

That would nominally be a power increase of 12-15 horsepower, and lo and behold: this also corresponds to the range of practical experience reported by our jet swap test pilots.