How does the Twincharger system work in the Golf GT?

I'm particularly interested in how the switching between the mechanical supercharger and the ATL (presumably a type of electric turbo) is technically implemented.
There must be some kind of valve system that seals off the part that is not in operation, right?

Perhaps someone even has a press kit about that projectile?

I was actually planning to convert my R21 to a compressor system, but the idea of twin-charging fascinates me;-).
hello citronist

citronist wrote:

Specifically, I would be particularly interested in how the switching between the mechanical supercharger and the ATL has been implemented technically.... There must be some kind of valve system that seals off the part that is not in operation, right? Perhaps someone even has a press kit about that projectile? I was actually planning to convert my R21 to a compressor system, but the idea of twin-charging fascinates me;-). hello citronist

Here is the original VW material:
[url][/url]

The Automatic Turbine Limiter (ATL) is practically always active. Above a certain speed, this valve only decompresses the compressor.http://www.volkswagen.de/vwcms_publish/etc/medialib/vwcms/virtualmaster/de/Unternehmen/inovation/motoren/tsi.Par.0057.Image.jpg{MARKER}

Aron wrote:

citronist wrote: Specifically, I would be particularly interested in how the switching between the mechanical supercharger and the ATL has been implemented technically... There must be some kind of valve system that seals off the part that is not in operation, right? Perhaps someone even has a press kit about that projectile? I was actually planning to convert my R21 to a compressor system, but the idea of twin-charging fascinates me;-). hello citronist Here is the original VW material: [img][/img] The ATL (Antilag System) is practically always active, and at a certain RPM, this valve only decompresses the compressor.

http://www.volkswagen.de/vwcms_publish/etc/medialib/vwcms/virtualmaster/de/Unternehmen/inovation/motoren/tsi.Par.0057.Image.jpg{MARKER}

Hm,
It seems much simpler than I thought... Hard to believe .

HERE you can even find a video about the TSI engine.
A lot of additional information is also available.

LG
Maxx.

Aron wrote:

The ATL (presumably a turbocharger component) essentially always operates, and above a certain speed, this valve only decompresses the compressor.

I'm familiar with it being done a bit differently; the compressor is mechanically disengaged from the crankshaft by a magnetic coupling at approximately 3,000 RPM. I see these constant dome-forming processes as a certain weakness in this structure.

Roger wrote:

I see these continuous dome-forming processes as a certain weakness in this construction.

You often hear that with Mercedes Kompressor engines... to my knowledge, there's also a conversion kit available to replace the supercharger with a fixed drive for models like the SLK and others.

It makes you wonder how everything still works together after 150,000 km.

But thankfully, that's not something I would have to worry about, as with fuel consumption around 20 liters per 100 kilometers, the 21 is not really the car for long-distance trips .

There is also a speed range where the compressor can be switched on or off as needed using a magnetic coupling.
Here is a picture of the tachometer scale.

[img][/img]

LG
Maxx.http://team-dezent.fimanist.com/TSI_Kompressor.jpg{MARKER}

I see these constant dome-related processes as a certain weakness in this construction.

Yes and no.

An unregulated climate compressor, even in a climate control system, also operates continuously with an electromagnetic coupling. So far, I haven't encountered many problems here, except with the Volvo, where the clutch sometimes fails.
Electromagnetic couplings are generally maintenance-free and wear-resistant. The clutch relay sometimes fails, but what else?

Well, we'll see, but this method is significantly more fuel-efficient than a fixed-bypass system, where the compressor is simply bypassed in the working range of the turbine.
And here lies the main characteristic of the GT: downsizing.

Best regards, Jochen.

Since I recently became the proud owner of a TSI , I will keep you informed about any potential defects, etc.

LG
Maxx.

@Jochen_145:

Here, I must disagree. It is true that when the air conditioning system is first turned on, a magnetic coupling engages the compressor. However, from that point on, the control is no longer implemented in an uncomfortable way (because it creates a jolt and is also strongly noticeable as a load surge in the motor behavior) by varying the duty cycle of the air conditioning compressor, but rather, for example, by using a swashplate to continuously vary the displacement volume of the compressor (= comfortable, jerk-free, and imperceptible).

Typically, gear changes are limited to just one after the engine starts. This is not the case with every change in speed within the specified range, and it happens with almost every gear change. This represents a significant difference in the number of gear changes, especially considering the speed differences that need to be bridged. The air conditioning compressor is often engaged directly after the engine starts, at idle speed, while in the TSI, this can also happen at higher speeds depending on the driving conditions. According to the posted performance curve, and under the corresponding load conditions, it exceeds 3,000 RPM.

And that these magnetic couplings contrary to theory are already wearing out even in the "occasional operation" climate described above, is evidenced by the various contributions on this topic from the summer. Therefore, there are indeed reasons to view the compressor control method, as currently implemented by VW in the TSI engine, with at least some skepticism regarding its potential long-term reliability, until proven otherwise through tests that go beyond the usual driving tests .

I will switch off my Climatronic, based on the considerations mentioned above, whenever possible, and even at idle speed if necessary. If necessary, I can also chime in briefly.

@Maxx:
Please keep us updated. The TSI would currently be the only gasoline engine that could potentially make me abandon the diesel craze - if it proves to be reliable. The technology seems quite attractive to me, aside from the turbocharger aspect. The engine has many modern features, such as. Two-zone cooling concept with cross-flow cooling, elimination of the usual fuel cooling system during full load operation, sodium-filled exhaust valves, and many other features that I am interested in.

@Roger,

You don't need to contradict me, as we were starting from different types of compressors.

I'm talking about an unregulated compressor, like the one installed in low-price air conditioners (which is basically most of them). This compressor always operates at maximum power and is switched off (disengaged) when the temperature behind the evaporator is below the lower setpoint. The control behavior is very simple: it uses a two-point control system.

You're not entirely wrong with your description.
You only talked about a regulated compressor, which you described perfectly correctly.

The latest versions of controlled compressors now even operate entirely without a clutch. This is because, at a control value of less than 5% (which varies depending on the manufacturer), the compressor no longer generates any pressure, and the frictional losses are so low that there is no need to disengage it.

You can currently find this compressor in current Audi, BMW, and Mercedes models.
Unregulated, Ford, Volvo, Citroen, and various Japanese and Korean manufacturers.

To avoid confusion:
I didn't describe the compressor of the TSI engine, but rather I generally described the application area of an electromagnetic coupling and mentioned that they have been successfully used in continuous control systems.

Best regards, Jochen.

@Roger: This very engine freed me from the diesel craze .

Jochen_145 wrote:

I am talking about an unregulated compressor, like the one installed in low-price air conditioners (i.e., almost all of them). This operates at maximum power and is switched off (disengaged) when the temperature behind the evaporator is below the lower set point. The control behavior is very simple: two-point control

.

I didn't realize they were still being installed in cars. As far as I know, they're long extinct in the VW Group. Even my beloved Golf III from 1997 with Climatronic had an externally controlled, jerk-free compressor. The same goes for the Golf IV, of course. However, even our Polo 9N confidently avoids the outdated two-point system in the "low price" category, but it does so in the more modern, internally regulated version with 2% permanent standby power, as is also used in other current VW models.

"At Ford, nothing surprises me anymore, but are those tech-loving Japanese really still putting such outdated technology into their cars?"

At Ford, I'm not surprised by anything anymore, but are those Japanese engineers, who are usually so passionate about technology, still putting such old junk in these cars?

Japanese people are superficially obsessed with technology.
If you look beyond the surface, you'll see that Japanese and Korean manufacturers are using outdated technology. However, this is not currently a negative thing, because this technique works reliably and can be checked with a multimeter.

A current-model Japanese car has the technological level of a Volkswagen Golf IV.
An exception is the Mazda3, which shares the same platform as the Ford Focus.
Bus networking is only just being introduced, and even then, it's only being used in the powertrain area.
The air conditioning system is not yet aware of the ABS (Anti-lock Braking System) or the radio.

The cooling fans only have 3 speed settings, and PWM control is only available on higher-end brands. The climate control units only send compressor requests to the Motronic system and have no knowledge of the actual refrigerant pressure.
Generally, Japanese people have a 'classic' build.

But when it comes to comfort electronics, they have everything that makes it pleasant. Stop with all the cables and relays.

Best regards, Jochen.

Jochen_145 wrote:

@Roger, You don't need to contradict me, as we were starting from different types of compressors. I'm talking about an unregulated compressor, like the one installed in low-price air conditioners (which is basically most of them). This compressor always operates at maximum power and is switched off (disengaged) when the temperature behind the evaporator is below the lower setpoint. The control behavior is very simple: it uses a two-point control system. You're not entirely wrong with your description. You only talked about a regulated compressor, which you described perfectly correctly. The latest versions of controlled compressors now even operate entirely without a clutch. This is because, at a control value of less than 5% (which varies depending on the manufacturer), the compressor no longer generates any pressure, and the frictional losses are so low that there is no need to disengage it. You can currently find this compressor in current Audi, BMW, and Mercedes models. Unregulated, Ford, Volvo, Citroen, and various Japanese and Korean manufacturers. To avoid confusion: I didn't describe the compressor of the TSI engine, but rather I generally described the application area of an electromagnetic coupling and mentioned that they have been successfully used in continuous control systems. Hi Jochen

PSA has also been manufacturing climate compressors with pressure regulation for many years. However, these compressors are regularly switched off under low load conditions, for example, at an outside temperature of 20°C, if the evaporator temperature sensor measures below 6°C. Because the expansion valve is not electronically controlled, pressures below 6°C can occur at the evaporator even under low pressure conditions. (The control parameters include outside temperature, evaporator temperature, refrigerant pressure, motor speed, battery voltage, motor control unit load request, etc.)

There is sometimes a slight ticking sound, but magnetic couplings are only available in the central warehouse (with a delivery time of up to 3 days) because there is no demand for these components. At the time, I also looked into it, and the mechanics, who had been working in car dealerships for years, never needed a second hand to count the number of used cars they had seen.

However, what tends to break quite often is the drive pulley with rubber damping (a design flaw in the older models). This pulley completely eliminates the initial "thump" sound when the air conditioning system starts up; you only hear a click from the front, and nothing more.

In gasoline engines, the superchargers are even switched off at higher speeds (in the 206 RC, for example, at 6000 rpm, because the supercharger would likely break down at 7500 rpm) .

Another thing is that Ford and PSA use the same diesel engines, and in this case, it's like this: when there are demands for rapid acceleration (e.g., During the overtaking process, the compressor is briefly switched off; with other manufacturers, this is certainly also interconnected.

Practically speaking, and from my own experience, I would say these things are indestructible.

If these components are appropriately sized, I think it might be possible to switch a 20kW air conditioning system instead of the current 7kW system, based on the switching capacity.

Meanwhile, even the water pumps are being connected, and it's working .