Modern chassis (what about the driver?)

Hello fellow diesel enthusiasts!

'I've been driving a Golf IV TDI (ALH without catalytic converter) station wagon for 4 months.'
Mileage: 100,000 km.
I went out in the snow for the first time this morning.
My impression:

A disaster.
The steering provides absolutely no feedback about road contact.
(Is he already sliding, or not yet?)
I'm almost afraid to turn, even at very low speeds.
ABS provides absolutely no security; on the contrary.
(I would have probably called that modern suspension system 'Mickey Mouse' garbage.)
Of course, I'm using good tires (size 195/65 R 15).

My old Golf III without ABS was completely different. I knew exactly how it would behave. My trained reflexes for braking, accelerating, and steering in slippery conditions are almost completely gone.

I just wanted to mention that I've always loved being out in the snow!


I understand that the IV model weighs about 350-400 kg more, and that driving with ABS is a completely different experience. Despite this, I feel completely disempowered as a driver.

Have you had similar experiences?

Regards,

Borys.

I don't actually think so... The Golf IV (especially the diesel version) tends to be front-heavy and has a lot of understeer, but with a little practice, you can actually control the drift quite well. Just don't be put off by the body roll. If necessary, pull the handbrake .

Compared to, for example, a Mercedes-Benz A-Class, the steering in the Golf provides a much more direct feel of the road. I don't have any experience with the Golf III, I have to admit.

My suggestion would be: Simply try doing some drifts on a snow-covered traffic training ground. Or take a safety training course; with a little practice, you'll quickly get to know the vehicle.

Are your shock absorbers still in good condition?

Regards,
Peter.

Hello Peter, and thank you very much.

Yes, the shock absorbers are still okay.
The body rolls, that's true.
If the snow is still there by this afternoon, I will hold a practice session.
It might be that as you get older, you tend to need to use the restroom more frequently, but still, I'm disappointed at first.
You don't really feel the transition in the curve where the tires still have grip and then suddenly lose it; it's not noticeable in the steering.

Regards,
Borys.

Hi,

I'm also dreading the first truly smooth roads with my Polo,

"I also felt safe with the G3 AFN (with ABS) even in 10 cm of snow or mud on the road, using 175-size Fulda Kristall Gravito tires."

"With my Polo (-> signature), similar situations last winter were comparatively a complete nightmare: less grip, almost no lateral stability, and sometimes I had to turn the steering wheel about a hand's width towards the center of the road to avoid sliding into the ditch – even though the tires (new 195 Uniroyal MS Plus) weren't spinning!"
As if there was ice under the snow, but then I probably wouldn't have been able to get up those inclines .

Hi.

I can compare a 10-year-old Golf 2 (in basic condition) with a 3-year-old Golf 3 Variant TDI with ABS.

- The 3-Series wagon turns very slowly with its rear end, but it's almost impossible to stop that rotation!
(When it does turn, it turns for a long time and slowly.)
- ABS is good.
- Driving a TDI without ASR (Anti-Slip Regulation) on smooth surfaces is incredibly tiring; it just keeps spinning.
- The brake balance is really bad on the 3er; it only uses the front brakes (maybe I should replace the rear brakes).

Goodyear UG7 on the G3, awesome!
Conti TS 760/780 tires were used on 2-stroke engines back then as well!

m;

dieselmartin wrote:

The brake balance on this car is really bad; it only uses the front brakes (maybe I should replace the rear brakes sometime)

...or keep the mechanics working properly and maintain good brake pad grip through regular use of the handbrake (in clear situations without a following vehicle, e.g., when rolling downhill in switchbacks, or before red traffic lights, etc.).

"This really makes a difference: With many other cars, you can't get the rear brakes to squeal, no matter how hard you pull on the lever. But with our cars (Polo with disc brakes, Ibiza with drum brakes), it's relatively(!) easy to make them squeal."

Hmm,

I've had quite contrasting experiences. The Mk III GTI 2.0 with 195/50 R15 Michelin XM-S 130 tires in winter was noticeably more agile and responsive in terms of steering, thanks to the plus suspension, but its traction, despite the EDS (Electronic Differential Lock), was rather mediocre. In contrast, the Mk I TDI, with its 205/55 R16 Goodyear tires, pulls away quite reliably even on slippery surfaces and conveys the feeling of a heavier, more stable vehicle, even though there's only a difference of about 200 kg between it and the Mk III. When starting, the ASR/EDS might briefly activate, but I haven't actually gotten it to slip significantly (without intending to ), as the excellently tuned ESP prevents that early enough, without being a killjoy.

However, the winter performance in terms of handling is surpassed by the Polo 9N with 185/60 R14 Dunlops, which, with its lightweight three-cylinder engine, has a very balanced weight distribution. On a heavily frozen surface with enough space around, this car transforms into a real fun machine: With a slightly abrupt steering input into the curves, allowing the ESP to catch the slightly oversteering rear, and then accelerating out of the curve in a slight drift. This is simply unthinkable with the front-heavy G IV TDI. The Polo 1.2 is almost ideal for narrow, icy mountain passes, driving similarly to a rear-wheel drive car. I constantly had a smile on my face . My passenger smiled less - it was her car .

The handbrake on the 9N (drum brakes) is noticeably more effective than the disc brakes on the G IV TDI, even though they are used daily when coasting up to the garage. You only get squealing from them by pulling them up abruptly. Anything that takes longer than 1/10th of a second only provides marginal braking. The third-generation Golf could do that much better.

@Ulf:
Perhaps it would help to reprogram the steering to provide less assistance, for example, to a "light vehicle" setting? It should, in my humble opinion, actually result in more road contact.

@Sauger:
I also suspect that the shock absorbers are worn out; 100,000 km is a good distance for that to happen. My previous car also had significant issues with the shock absorbers at that mileage. I bought it new and was able to observe this closely; the AB's favorite driving route became slower and slower over time . If I hadn't sold it with 100,000 km on the odometer, I would have had to buy new shock absorbers.

Well, I was once able to compare both a Golf 3 with a 90 horsepower gasoline engine and a Golf 4 with a 90 horsepower TDI engine and ESP several years ago.
'In my opinion, the 4er (BMW Series 4) drives better with ESP enabled, allowing for higher cornering speeds and a more secure driving feel. However, I was curious to see how the 4er behaves without ESP. The result was alarming! On the small roads around here, I was able to drive the 4er without ESP at about 20 km/h without causing an accident. In comparison, I could drive the 3er Golf without ABS at about 30 km/h, and the 4er with ESP enabled at about 40 km/h – give or take 5 km/h in each case.'
For about a year now, the lateral acceleration sensor in my mother's car (which was a Golf 4) has been defective. This also means that the ESP (Electronic Stability Program) no longer functions, and it has been a real adjustment for my mother in terms of driving technique, especially in the winter.
Best regards,
Martin

Hi! Thanks for the feedback.

It's likely that the shock absorbers are no longer performing at their full capacity, but they haven't completely worn out yet.
On dry and uneven roads, the suspension provides a sense of relative confidence (it leans slightly in curves but remains stable in its lane and doesn't bounce sideways).
You can tell that the car is front-heavy.
Perhaps less power steering assistance would actually be better.
I probably need a few more kilometers of experience driving this car on smooth roads.
Of course, modern suspension systems have many advantages, and everything is designed to enhance comfort.
You shouldn't give the driver too much feedback about road contact, otherwise they will feel like they are 'driving a tractor.'
It's very likely that my long experience with older cars is what makes me dislike comfortable suspensions.

Regards,

Borys.

Roger wrote:

However, the winter performance in terms of handling is surpassed by the Polo 9N with 185/60 R14 Dunlops, which, thanks to its lightweight three-cylinder engine, has a very balanced weight distribution across the axles. On a heavily frozen snow surface with enough open space around, this thing transforms into a real fun device: With a bit of sharp steering into the curves, letting the ESP catch the slightly oversteering rear end, and then using the throttle to drift out of the curve...

Hi Roger,

Have you ever tried it with ESP OFF? I had already canceled my order, so I can't do a test drive.
However, when driving on dry or even wet roads, I have no reason to complain about the handling.

Quote:

Quote: Perhaps it would help to reprogram the steering to provide less assistance, for example, to a "light vehicle" setting? It should, in my humble opinion, actually result in more road contact.

I've been using it with minimal assistance for about a year now, but I haven't noticed any significant improvement or "aha" moment after the re-coding.

I also completely agree about the issue with the Variant and the 'if it slides, it's almost unstoppable' characteristic, especially for the Vento. As long as you drove very cautiously within the grip range and at low speeds, everything was fine. However, curves, snow, and even sometimes just rain and a bit more momentum were enough to make it very difficult to keep it on the road. Of course, it didn't have ABS, ASR, or ESP.

I'm completely satisfied with the performance of my current ESP system in the winter, and it's also fun to drive on various country roads a bit faster, as it always provides good control.

ulf wrote:

Hi Roger, Have you ever tried it with ESP OFF? I had already cancelled mine, so I can't do a comparison test.

Without ESP (Electronic Stability Program), it's significantly more difficult. You have to be much more attentive; with the electronic aids, you can almost put a brick on the accelerator. It's hard to do anything wrong. Well, those 112 Nm also produce slightly less power than a TDI.

Our cars' ESP functions exactly as you would expect. It's just as safe, reliable, and essential as the ABS. The ESP also allows for real driving fun, unlike the old A-Class, which would cut power at the slightest hint of acceleration. I have the impression that intervention only occurs (subjectively) at 3 km/h before the final takeoff.

Roger wrote:

Hmm, I've had quite contrasting experiences. The Mk III GTI 2.0 with 195/50 R15 Michelin XM-S 130 tires in winter was noticeably more agile and responsive in terms of steering, thanks to the plus suspension, but its traction, despite the EDS (Electronic Differential Lock), was rather mediocre. In contrast, the Mk I TDI, with its 205/55 R16 Goodyear tires, pulls away quite reliably even on slippery surfaces and conveys the feeling of a heavier, more stable vehicle, even though there's only a difference of about 200 kg between it and the Mk III. When starting, the ASR/EDS might briefly activate, but I haven't actually gotten it to slip significantly (without intending to ), as the excellently tuned ESP prevents that early enough, without being a killjoy. ...

I completely agree.
While ESP is often deactivated in my car, it really requires a significant amount of driving skill. The G4 station wagon is a rear-wheel drive vehicle, and the ESP system is quite weak. So, turn it off and go around the corner with a "drift" maneuver. I don't need a handbrake for that.

Some G4 models have significant problems with the rear shock absorbers. If they're still the original ones with 100,000 km on them -> junk!

Sauger der 3-te wrote:

... My trained reflexes for braking, accelerating, and steering in slippery conditions are almost completely gone. ...

That's probably normal. A Golf 1 doesn't behave the same way as a Golf 3 either.
Every vehicle has its own unique characteristics.

Okay, I think the Golf 3 (without ABS) is also easy to control in snow and ice, and it's relatively easy to regain control if you start to lose it. However, I don't have a point of comparison, as I haven't driven any other cars over longer distances on snowy roads, parking lots, or side streets.

During the driving safety training, specifically the 'skid plate' exercise, the Golf was surprisingly easy to control and, after that, relatively easy to maneuver through the slalom course.

The Opel, which was there for testing ABS, ESP, rain sensor, and other systems, didn't impress me much. In three attempts, I always ended up with at least a 720-degree spin, whether I tried to steer against it or did nothing to see what the ESP would do.

I've compared the Golf3 2-door with 1Z ABS (Bilstein coilovers), the Golf Variant TDI 100PS with ABS and ESP, and my new Passat 3B Variant 1.8T with ABS and EDS (30mm Eibach lowering springs).
The Passat drives the best by far, even with 205 size winter tires (Goodyear Ultragrip). In my opinion, it doesn't tend to slide out the rear as much in corners, even with the combination of factors, compared to the Golf 3 (especially in the snow, which we're seeing a lot of these days).

The Golf 3, even with power steering, doesn't have a more direct steering feel than the Golf 4, but it's not really comparable because it's not as light and easy to turn as the one in the Golf 4.
The Passat has indirect steering around the center position, but otherwise it's very good. The suspension is, by far, the best there, even with the 30mm Eibach lowering springs.
The shock absorbers make a huge difference on the Golf 4! I would say, get rid of your stuff!
Even with the storm last Friday, heavy rain, and a temperature of around 1°C, I was able to drive on the highway without any problems in my Golf4 Variant! However, it has new shocks/dampers installed with 3000 km on them (total mileage 95000 km), and the difference was definitely noticeable.
In my opinion, the Golf 3 with ABS remains very stable and on course when braking with ABS activated from a speed of 50 km/h on a prepared surface (safety training). However, the braking distance is longer compared to modern ABS systems, even with slotted brake discs. Surprisingly, even with the Golf 3, oversteer could be fun; once you regained control, you could steer it nicely. I was amazed during the safety training. Unfortunately, I don't have any experience comparing it to the Golf 4. But ESP is just a guest on that launchpad anyway.

Therefore, I cannot directly say that VAG vehicles, especially the Golf, are difficult to drive. I find both the 3-series and the 4-series to be very user-friendly.