Explanation of MWB 4 at PD-ASZ (Synchronization Angle)?

Hello everyone,

I used Ulf's method for adjusting the camshaft on my Bora a while ago,
MKB: ASZ completed. Finally, I turned the camshaft pulley about 5° towards the early position.
Result: The engine spun more freely at higher RPMs, and the torque peak was smoothed out at 1900 RPM.
This resulted in a higher idle consumption reading according to the MFA.
To briefly describe the display:

Engine idling, cold: 0.6-0.7 l/h
warm: 1,0-1,1 l/h

I made some more log entries yesterday and also checked the MWB 4. I observed a noise level of 1.2 n oT while the engine was running at idle in the warm state. Synchronization angle -3.9.
After a full-load run on the AB at almost 4000 RPM, with just 17° KW v. oT and a synchronization angle of -3.7.
There seems to be something wrong, he should only be able to move within a window of +3...-3, right?

Can anyone explain the relationship between the start of funding and the synchronization angle?

I have a suspicion that the starting point for the boost is predetermined by the control unit, either based on the position sensor of the crankshaft or the BIP signal of the current flowing through the PD elements.
Now the ST-device is unsuccessfully trying to compensate, or am I completely wrong?

Thank you and best regards,

Ferdi

Hello everyone,

I tried to explain the synchronization angle to myself!
Since the value on my engine was -3.9, this caused me quite a headache. According to VCDS, the acceptable range for the last display field in MWB 4 is +3…-3 °KW. So, I decided to make another adjustment to the valve timing, specifically compared to the marking on the clutch housing viewing port.

It turned out that the camshaft 1 – 1.5 °KW was set too early!
Therefore, the likely reason for the reduced performance at V max with the P-box enabled is probably due to the {TIME WINDOW OF THE PDE}, which is becoming smaller over time, resulting in a lower flow volume???; can someone confirm this?

Is the position of the clamping screws on the camshaft gear marked, and are they adjusted approximately 1mm towards the late position (the clamping screws turned counter-clockwise into the long hole) and hand-tightened?
Then, to test, attach the air intake hose to the AGR valve fitting, and let the engine run at idle.

MFA Idle: Before: 1.0 / 1.1 l/h After: 0.8 / 0.9 l/h

VCDS started, Mode 4

Idle: Synchronization Angle: Before -3.9 After: -2.2

I will adjust the camshaft timing gear over the weekend so that the synchronization angle is approximately 0 (using VCDS). Subsequently, locate the position of the KW (presumably a specific component), where a 6mm drill rod aligns with the hole in the NWR (presumably a specific component) and the hole in the cylinder head.
That should actually be the ideal scenario, right?

From my consideration, the synchronization angle should describe the angular displacement between the crankshaft and the cam shaft. Calculated by Hall effect sensors at the NW and KW.
So, a clear indication for correct timing, so you can probably check these first with VCDS!
This will also directly affect the duration of the PDE subsidy, as the subsidy period starts when the engine is idling and electronically controlled to 1.2 n oT.

Are my thoughts about this correct?

This would also explain my lower fuel consumption of approximately 0.5 liters per 100 km compared to the MFA, using the 'fill-up at night' method.

Best regards, Ferdi

Ferdi wrote:

The position of the clamping screws on the camshaft wheel is marked, and these are adjusted approximately 1mm towards the late position (the clamping screws turned counter-clockwise into the long hole) and hand-tightened. Then, to test, attach the air intake hose to the AGR valve fitting, and let the engine run at idle. MFA Idle: Before: 1.0 / 1.1 l/h After: 0.8 / 0.9 l/h VCDS started, Mode 4 Idle: Synchronization Angle: Before -3.9 After: -2.2

Hi,

Your report is the first to establish a clear link between NW adjustment and the displayed synchronization angle.
When I re-tuned my ignition timing (approximately 3° earlier than stock), the displayed synchronization angle didn't change noticeably, I believe
Don't ask me why...

Quote:

Based on my reasoning, the synchronization angle should describe the angular displacement between the crankshaft and the cam shaft. Calculated by Hall effect sensors at the NW and KW. So, a clear indication for correct timing, so you can probably check these first with VCDS!

According to my results, yes, but ... (see above).

Quote:

This also directly influences the duration of the PDE subsidy, as the subsidy period starts when the engine is idling and electronically controlled to 1.2 n oT.

Let's say this: the duration of the PDE shutdown is unlikely to change.
However, since the path of the pump plunger (start and end position) during (the same) injection with reversed timing is different, other real injection volumes can also arise.

Hello Ulf,

yes, that's really strange, I must say that I have now received a new engine control unit under warranty (due to rough running). Then there was also a new LMM, since the ASZ is really running well, I easily reach the AB, especially on straight stretch 3900 U/min, approximately 218 Km/h on the speedometer, and according to the DZR, I have 144 PS and 335 NM.
Everything is a series!

The engine is absolutely not running smoothly anymore. 'Stop' is not working correctly; it also vibrates slightly when idling on a hill at a traffic light, and I don't know why! Let's see...

We had discussed the starting difficulty of my ASZ back then, and this has also noticeably improved. I firmly addressed my friendly but also very insistent friend, thanks to VCDS!

I have a switchable box from a tuner here in the area. Strangely, I achieved Vmax without the box using the old cam setting, but with the box, it was somehow restricted, but with a powerful, slipping clutch between 1700 and 2600 RPM! That's why it's switchable!

I suspect that the camshaft was slightly too early, the pump piston was already at its end position, and the box still wants to continue injecting! => doesn't want to know what I've done to the hydraulic system!

Therefore, I also want to bring the synchronization angle as close to 0 as possible. The reports, such as the forward rotation of the engine on the flywheel and the sight mark, will ensure that the position is correct!

Has your MFA changed after you made the adjustments?
What is the synchronization angle at your ASZ?

Best regards, Ferdi

Ferdi wrote:

I must also say that I have now received a new engine control unit at the manufacturer's expense (due to rough running). Then there was also a new LMM, since the ASZ is really running well, I easily reach the AB, especially on straight stretch 3900 U/min, approximately 218 Km/h on the speedometer, and according to the DZR, I have 144 PS and 335 NM. Everything is a series!

Interesting... Could you please post the VAG number along with the software version (SGxxxx) of the old and new MSG?

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Has your MFA changed when you performed the recalibration?

Not noticeable, certainly below the resolution in the 0.1 liter grid.

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What is the synchronization angle on your ASZ?

Adjust before and after to 0°.
If I read your report like this, I wonder if I actually deviated from the factory settings at the time, despite all the fuss

Hi Ulf,

Regarding the MSG numbers, I can only provide them later today, around evening, and they are on my laptop!

Hmm, I immediately had a change in the volume setting in the MFA when I received the car, 0.5/0.6 l/h; then setting 1.0/1.1 => sync angle -3.9°; now 0.8/0.9 => -2.2°

I'm curious to see what will happen tomorrow while I'm working on the project. But you're right, constantly postponing, measuring, and re-checking is really tedious!

Maybe your synchronization angle was actually +3° back then? Did you check that, shouldn't I be saying that instead! With this setting, everything should be perfect!

Best regards, Ferdi [/quote]

Hello Ulf,

So, I just checked the log and found that I had previously set the problem of low performance in the lower RPM range, which was related to the old MSG.

So, MSG alt: 038 906 019 HJ 1.9l R4 EDC G500SG 1576
MSG new: 038 906 019 HJ 1.9l R4 EDC G400SG 5259

And I think it's hitting the mark, actually logged the timing back then, and the synchronization angle is predominantly 0° and the starting point at full load is
-21° KW, I haven't seen anything like this before, especially not with the extremely early timing of the camshaft!
Hmm, repaired the valve cover, but after the adjustment, the engine's performance characteristics were much smoother!

/viewtopic.php?t=12176&highlight=underpressure pump

Hey, I have a silly question: Could the extreme early start time when running at full capacity affect the effectiveness of my Power Box?
Had a lower top speed with Box, also a higher fuel consumption, despite a torque-oriented driving style! Currently, I am increasingly leaning towards {CHIPTUNING}.

I still have two questions, you had the AFN, I had the AHF, how do you rate the engine braking of your ASZ compared?

What is the boost pressure of your ASZ at idle? I think I read somewhere that the max position of the VTG supports the engine braking during shutdown!
I have only around 980 mBar in idle. The control element is at the lower tolerance! Otherwise, I will remove the VTG adjustment and set the maximum. Adjust print differential.

I'll have something to do tomorrow, and I'm sure I'll feel motivated after working at my desk!

Best regards, Ferdi

Ferdi wrote:

And I think I'm onto something, actually logged the timing back then, and the synchronization angle is mostly 0° and the starting point at full load is -21° KW, I haven't seen that with the extremely early camshaft!

So what does that mean now?
That the synchronization angle also remains around 0° for you, no matter how you rotate the NW?

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but after the adjustment, the engine's performance characteristics were much smoother!

ACK

Quote:

First, let me ask a silly question: Could the extreme early adjustment during full load potentially compromise the effectiveness of my Power Box? Had with Box a lower maximum speed than without, as well as a higher fuel consumption, despite a torque-oriented driving style!

My function theory of "real" PD-boxes (which are inserted into the PDE cable harness) cannot explain this - but only if one assumes that with Box, the PDE opening times are also delayed, so that in conjunction with the earlier end of the fuel injection stroke (thanks to early-adjusting NW), smaller fuel injection volumes are created.

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In the meantime, I am increasingly leaning towards *grins*

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I have two more questions, you had the AFN, I had the AHF, how do you rate the engine braking of your ASZ compared?

Not much difference, I believe.

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What is the static pressure of your ASZ?. . .I only have around 980 mBar at idle.

Also, is yours practically only atmospheric pressure (what altitude are you logging from?). However, my LL is also adapted to run down to 840 rpm.

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The component test is within the lower tolerance! Otherwise, I'll just take the VTG clamp and the max. Adjust the pressure difference.

**Caution:** Using the adjustment control does NOT, as far as I know, increase the LL speed; you need to use the basic setting in the MWB 11!

Hi Ulf,

I think you misunderstood me. About a year ago, I had driven the previously mentioned LOGS, everything was still original and untouched. Synchronization angle was 0°!
Then I had the camshaft wheel machined earlier, due to the synchronization angles being -3.9°, and then readjusted yesterday -2.2°.

So, the synchronization angle changes when I adjust the NWR! And I think the timing was already optimal at 0° synchronization angle back then.

I will test it this afternoon, though.

So, wenn ich das Prinzip des KW-Systems Box richtig verstehe, wird die Leistungselektronik basierend auf einem vorgegebenen Kennfeld, das auf dem Mikrocontroller gespeichert ist, gesteuert! D.h. if the MSG interrupts the current flow to the PDEs, another current flow occurs through the box.
How else can you get more fuel? Definitely not caused by increased electricity!
Because the longer the holding current at the solenoid, the greater the flow rate.

I typically log flights between 130m and 200m above sea level.

What bothers me is this awful engine braking!

This is the correct setting for the MWB 11, as it periodically increases the LL speed to approximately 1400 RPM, and the AI is simulating a Christmas tree .

I will continue to report on what came out after the screwing today!

Best regards, Ferdi

Ferdi wrote:

I must also mention that I have now received a new engine control unit (due to the rough running) as a courtesy.

Are you really sure about the new MSG?
According to my information, you can flash the ... HJ, then you would only have a new data set. The stand with the Rev. 5259 is a customer service measure to address the issue of vibrations.

Ferdi wrote:

Also, wenn ich das Prinzip des KW-Systems-Systems richtig verstehe, wird die Leistungselektronik durch eine vorgegebene Kennlinie gesteuert, die auf dem Mikrocontroller gespeichert ist! D.h. if the MSG interrupts the current flow to the PDEs, another current flow occurs through the box. How else can you get more fuel? Definitely not caused by increased electricity! Because the longer the holding current at the solenoid, the greater the flow rate.

That's how I know it too. But that doesn't quite explain why your box steals power when the power is turned off early...

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What's bothering me is this awful engine braking!

That's great: then the momentum lasts longer in the low-speed mode, and you don't have to give it more gas later -> fuel savings

BTT: I found this here through searching.
/viewtopic.php?t=5257&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=Synchronisationswinkel&start=38
Actually, I can't find any logs anymore with the "late" factory settings of my NW.
In the few "After-Logs" with MWB 4, the synchronization angle is, on average, 0° (approximately -1.7 ... + 1.7°).

Hello Roger,

Das wäre aber eine Herausforderung. Ich habe eine Rechnung von einem freundlichen Händler über mehr als 1200 Euro, 50% Rabatt von VW und der Rest wurde von meiner Gebrauchtwagen-Garantie übernommen. Am Ende habe ich also nur 50 Euro bezahlt. The friendly person said that this MSG cannot be read using an OBD port!

They also removed everything to get to the MSG. The windshield wiper arms were different than before! Maybe the MSG can only be fixed in VW? Don't think that the Friendly programmer has an adapter for EEPROM chips!

But ultimately, I don't care. The mechanic from the car dealership told me that he had rarely seen such a quiet-running ASZ (presumably an abbreviation for a specific car model or component). I agree with that too. Since there have been no more jitters, glitches, or anything else, it's running smoothly like a clock, unlike before!

Best regards, Ferdi

Thank you for the information.

@ulf:
Can you confirm that the HJ is not flashable?
Then I can cancel my upcoming update appointment .

Roger wrote:

@ulf: Can you confirm that the HJ is not flashable? Then I can cancel my upcoming update appointment .

Hello,

I haven't tried it yet, but according to my information, should be flashable.

Here are some experts who can answer such questions much more thoroughly (Rainer, Rudi, etc.)

ulf wrote:

But there are also know-it-alls who can answer such questions much more thoroughly (Rainer, Rudi, etc.)

Rudi has already confirmed this /viewtopic.php?t=11404.

Greetings
Peter

Hello everyone,

I would like to return to the synchronization angle! I adjusted the cam wheel slightly further towards the late position last night. (approximately 0.7 mm from the previous marking on the screw edge, which secures the cam wheel)

Here's the translation:

Synchronization angle with too early adjustment -3.9°, 1mm adjustment -2.2° and finally 0.7mm => -0.6°. All further adjustments to reach 0° occur in the tenth of a millimeter range. I adjusted it this way, and the marked position is correct (+/-)! Because after repeatedly bringing the engine to optimal position, even a minimal backward rotation of the balancer is enough, and the camshaft position can no longer be marked. Then there are also the errors in determining the optimal position in the sight window. 'All you need to do is change the position of the swing arm's pivot point to the KGM, and then the 6mm pin will no longer fit!'

ULF wrote:That's how I know it too. But that doesn't quite explain why your box steals power when the power is turned off early...



I don't know if you're messing with that, regarding the VP pump, you can adjust the starting spray time early on to optimize late spraying of a box! However, the timing settings for the KW and valve drive remained unchanged. That's how I did it with my AHF back then, and it had really good bite at the top! DZR 4.8 sec! Sold for 280 TKm, unfortunately!

In a PD engine, you can't actually move the starting point of the power stroke forward, only through the MSG! If I now significantly change the camshaft on a PD engine to effectively move it earlier, am I actually changing the valve timing, meaning the valves close earlier? The injection pressure in the PDE is, on the other hand, increased to the same value at the same time, since the piston in the plunger has already moved back to the pre-adjusted position.

I no longer know if that's correct (correct me), in my opinion, the precisely calculated airflow in the cylinder is no longer accurate at OT, and the engine also sprays fuel later. In the worst case, if the exhaust valves are already starting to open, how effective! This would, however, explain the effect of the box in the upper speed range!

So, I think I can't get around Rainer in the long run!

Best regards, Ferdi