Battery Case: Cost vs. Benefit?

Hello,

The report shows, for example, that my Polo's battery has a (heat-insulating) protective cover, but this was missing from the factory, which I only noticed too late.

Also, even the ALH-Ibiza from my better half came directly from the factory without such a protective case.
Seat-specifications only specify the body for petrol cars with air conditioning in warm climates.
In the VW documents for the Polo, there are no restrictions mentioned, but for example, with the G4, it apparently only applies to gasoline engines.

Can we therefore assume that the primary purpose of the cover is to protect against water loss due to high temperatures in the engine compartment, but that it provides no / little benefit in winter due to reduced nighttime cooling = higher cold start current?

13 Euros per case = 26 Euros for both cars is also "more than nothing", which I don't want to spend on something useless.
Or does anyone know affordable, acid-resistant materials that can insulate the battery similarly well as the OEM case?

EDIT
For the G5, the housing is also designed for diesel engines

Therefore, it can be assumed that the primary function of the casing is to protect against water loss due to high temperatures in the engine compartment, but that it provides no / minimal benefit in winter due to reduced nighttime cooling = higher cold start current?


Yes, it is designed to protect against excessive temperatures.
But not only due to water loss, but also to increase the battery life to a tolerable level.

Background:
A lead-acid battery is actually designed for ambient temperatures up to a maximum of 65°C. If operated in high-temperature environments, its lifespan is reduced.

Since modern motorcycles reach almost 65°C, the battery needs to be protected.

A further reason why batteries are increasingly moving into the trunk of powerful engines is...

Best regards,
Jochen

Jochen_145 wrote:

Because modern motorcycles reach almost 65°C even when cold, the battery must be protected.

Ah yes: that's why the G5 (very modern engine compartment) also works with "cold" diesel engines and the battery housing.

Therefore, I should probably buy another one of those if there are no restrictions on gasoline engines or warm climates?

[Translating...]Hallo Ulf,

ein Fehler ist es nicht.
Wobei bei deinem leichten Fahrzeug die nach UTM erwarten Temperaturen wohl nicht erreicht werden.
Erst wenn du versucht mit vollbeladenen Anhänger die Pässe hoch zu robben wird es interessant.

Wie lange hält deine Batterie bis jetzt, bzw wie alt ist sie ?

Gruss Jochen

[Translating...]

Jochen_145 wrote:

Erst wenn du versucht mit vollbeladenen Anhänger die Pässe hoch zu robben wird es interessant.

Hi Jochen,

in diese Verlegenheit werde ich schon mangels AHK erstmal nicht kommen

Quote:

Wie lange hält deine Batterie bis jetzt, bzw wie alt ist sie ?

Varta-Werksausstattung von Feb. 2004 (EZ).

Beim Ibiza 6K ist auch noch Werksausstattung (Tudor) von März 01 drin, aber da zeigen unübersehbare Säuredichteunterschiede selbst nach einer Knallvoll-Ladung, daß sie ihre besten Tage hinter sich hat.
Noch orgelt der Anlasser fröhlich, aber meine Hand will ich nicht mehr ins Feuer legen, daß Christel mit dem Ding ohne Probs auch durch den nächsten Winter kommt.

[Translating...]Hallo Ulf,

wenn du die Batterie sein 2001 verbaut hast, wird sie keinerlei thermische Probleme haben.

Dieser Schutz wurde einsetzt, damit die Batterie zumindest die Garantie-Zeit überlebt und erst nach 3 Jahren den Geist auf gibt...

Somit ist der Thermoschutz ein nettes Feature, was aber in deinem Fall wohl unnütz ist

Gruss Jochen

[Translating...]

Jochen_145 wrote:

Dieser Schutz wurde einsetzt, damit die Batterie zumindest die Garantie-Zeit überlebt und erst nach 3 Jahren den Geist auf gibt... Somit ist der Thermoschutz ein nettes Feature, was aber in deinem Fall wohl unnütz

Ja, mein Polo ist inzwischen auch gute 3 1/2 Jahre alt, und seine Batterie ist laut Säuredichtemessung noch gut fit.

Na ja mal sehen . . . ich habe noch jede Menge Aluklebeband aus der Installation von Heizrohr-Isolierungen übrig.
Davon werde ich trotzdem etwas an die Außenseiten des schwarzen(!) Batteriekastens kleben, die starken Wärmestrahlungsquellen zugewandt sind - in der Hoffnung, daß dann zumindest die Aufheizung durch IR-Strahlung reduziert / verzögert wird . . .

EDIT
Habe die Wirkung grade mal mit einer Infrarot-Gesundheitslampe und meinem oberen "Batterie-Zierdeckel" probiert, den ich halb mit der Folie bezogen habe.
Die Lampe aus ca. 30 cm Entfernung auf den Deckel strahen lassen, und nach ca. 2 Minuten Fühlprobe an der Innenseite des Deckels: wo noch kein Alu drüber ist - >AUTSCH, unter dem Alu nur minimal angewärmt.
Das ist also schon mal eine hochwirksame Wärmebremse gegen Strahlung von der Motorhaube runter zur Batterie, wenn die Sonne auf die Motorhaube knallt

Hello, tinkerers,

Packing the battery definitely increases its lifespan.
This is not only about the operating temperature range, as already mentioned (e.g., exceeding 65°C or falling below very low temperatures), but especially about avoiding temperature gradients within the battery – i.e., Cell 1 (close to the engine) being much hotter than Cell 6 (far from the engine).
Batteries last the longest when the temperature is consistently uniform across all cells and there are minimal temperature differences.
What also rapidly reduces the lifespan are consumers with voltage gradients that are above what the alternator can "dynamically" handle (e.g., amplifiers). Then the power grid is immersed in the battery with every bass stroke => many discharge cycles...

So, packen Sie alles ein und verwenden Sie Amps mit PowerCaps, um den Strom zu puffern.

P.S. My motorcycle battery (ZXR750), which was always kept in the garage (summer) and the cellar (winter), lasted for 14 years...

Heizfoss

heizfoss wrote:

Batteries last the longest when all cells are consistently temperature-controlled and minimal temperature differences are maintained.

Ah, yes: therefore, even regular deep cooling during winter also shortens the lifespan of the battery, even if the battery in a large engine compartment never reaches 65°C?
Then, a battery case that reduces heat loss would definitely be a worthwhile investment.

OT, because interesting:

Quote:

What also rapidly reduces the lifespan are consumers with voltage gradients that are above what the alternator can "dynamically" handle (e.g., amplifiers). Then the power grid is immersed in the battery with every bass stroke => many discharge cycles... . . . Amps with PowerCaps buffering helps.

Hm. . . Let's say, for example, that the battery is actively involved in the process, using an average current of 15 Amperes, for 0.1 seconds every half second. In this process, she loses approximately 1.5 Ah, which is only about 0.0007% of the nominal capacity of a 60Ah battery, which can then be recharged before the next bass beat.
Okay, so ergibt das bei 30 Minuten Disco etwa 3600 Entlade-Lade-Zyklen, aber sind sie auch so schädlich? -> sind sie auch so schädlich?

{BACKGROUND}:

Jochen_145 wrote:

A lead-acid battery is actually only designed for ambient temperatures up to permanently 65°C.

Hello Jochen,

Where did this number come from?
According to my information, for lead-acid batteries, temperatures above 20 degrees Celsius already reduce their lifespan.

Ulf wrote:

Of course, this means that with 30 minutes of disco, there are approximately 3600 discharge-charge cycles, but are they also "microscopically small" -> are they also that harmful?

According to Eurobat, the smoothing of the charging voltage is defined, i.e., the maximum residual ripple due to superimposed AC components. Conversely, transients from the stage cause the charging voltage to break down even more significantly than the permissible residual ripple of a few mV. So, it's probably not going to be very good for battery life...

Roger wrote:

According to Eurobat, the smoothing of the charging voltage is defined, i.e., the maximum residual ripple due to superimposed AC components. Conversely, transients from the output stage cause the charging voltage to drop even more significantly than the permissible residual ripple of a few mV. So, it's probably not going to be very good for battery life...

Hm, while the bass notes, one can't really talk about charging, as long as the battery supports the power grid.

However, if the charging voltage fluctuates, for example, between 14.2 and 14.4 V, the battery would still need to be constantly charged: with varying current strengths, but without reversing polarity = discharging. Is this also harmful once the remaining capacity, according to Eurobat exceeded?

Where did this number come from?
According to my information, for lead-acid batteries, temperatures above 20 degrees Celsius already reduce their lifespan.

Hello Roger,

I believe your number is correct.
The temperature I am aware of is the limit at which the lifespan falls below the period relevant for warranty and guarantee claims.

This number represents the defined limit for an OEM.
This number was also mentioned by a supplier specializing in battery management.

Genauner unfortunately...psst!

Best regards,
Jochen

ulf wrote:

Is this also harmful once the residual wave, as per Eurobat exceeded?

I assume this is the case, because what the battery sees is then similar to a poorly smoothed sine wave with very low frequency.

I will quote the following excerpt from the guide, as a paraphrase:

The maintenance charging voltage of superimposed alternating current ensures a reduction in the service life.
Under continuous operation at 5-100% load, the residual ripple should remain < +/- 1%. Sharp and wave-like overlaps up to +/- 2.5% peak-to-peak are permitted.
Under no circumstances should the current flowing through the battery in parallel operation should reverse its direction.


@Jochen:

Aha , however, these are also just temporary peaks. At temperatures in this altitude, I believe that after a few weeks or at most months of operation, it would be time to stop.

Roger wrote:

The charging voltage for maintaining the DC voltage ensures a reduction in the service life. In continuous operation at 5-100% load, the residual ripple should remain < +/- 1%.

Um . . . wie ist denn hier das Wort "Last" zu verstehen, wenn es primär um das Laden der Batterie geht?

ulf wrote:

The charging voltage for maintaining the DC voltage ensures a reduction in the service life. Roger wrote: In continuous operation at 5-100% load, the residual ripple should remain < +/- 1%. Um . . . wie ist denn hier das Wort "Last" zu verstehen, wenn es primär um das Laden der Batterie geht?

This clearly refers to the load of the charger.

Roger wrote:

This obviously refers to the load of the charger.

Oh my god *andiestirnklatsch*
Yes, yes, if you can't see the forest for the trees...

By the way, you can also forget the PM I sent this morning. I had confused it with this thread.