First TDI engine in a passenger car - a Rover!?

Hi there,

I came across the following note/comment/suggestion:

Please provide the text you would like me to translate from German to English. I will then give you only the translation, without any explanations.
2.0-liter MDi (Perkins Prima) diesel engines (including turbo versions) used in Austin/Rover Maestro and Austin/Rover Montego models, manufactured from 1986 to 1993, with a displacement of 1994cc.
Please provide the text you would like me to translate from German to English. I will then give you only the translation, without any explanations.

According to this information, Rover had been offering a 2.0-liter naturally aspirated diesel engine with direct injection since 1986, supplied by Perkins. Later, it was also available as a turbocharged version, with a maximum output of 60 kW.

Fiat introduced the Croma 1.9 dTi a year later, and Audi followed much later in 1989 with the 1T engine in the Audi 100.

Unfortunately, I haven't found much information online about the pioneering work of Rover/Perkins regarding direct injection in passenger cars. Is there anywhere else I can find more information about this engine?

Regards,
Jens.

According to Bosch's diesel management system, it was a Fiat... hmm.

matthiasTDI96 wrote:

According to Bosch's diesel management system, it was Fiat... mmm

Then check the Bosch documentation for an ESP 0 460 414 094 (VE4/11 F2250 R482).
It belongs to the above-mentioned engine, and apparently it existed before the 0 460 414 056, which was the ESP unit from the Fiat Croma 1.9 dTI.

The Perkins engine was likely also used (or rather, primarily used) as a marine engine, and it was indeed a direct injection engine. In the field of industrial truck and marine diesel engines, direct injection has been standard since the 1960s.

Regards,
Jens.

Did this Fiat Croma actually already have the EDC (or VP36?) with a potentiometer, or what engine was it equipped with?

Jens 16syncro wrote:

... Then check the Bosch documentation for an ESP 0 460 414 094 (VE4/11 F2250 R482). It belongs to the above-mentioned engine, and apparently it existed before the 0 460 414 056, which was the ESP for the Fiat Croma 1.9 dTI. ...

Kaum Verwunderlich, da der erste Croma 1900 Turbo D i.d. (so nannte er sich genau) ursprünglich mit Magneti Marelli Equippment ausgestattet war ...
Later, around 1988 or 1989, the Cromas were equipped with Bosch components.

Furthermore, the Perkins engine is significantly older than the Fiat engine... although not in a passenger car .

The Chroma was actually the first direct injection (DI) engine in a passenger car that was also sold in the 1987 model year.
By the way, Fiat is talking about the start of sales in 1986: http://www.fiat.com/cgi-bin/pbrand.dll/FIAT_COM/news/news.jsp?session=no&categoryOID=-1073765887&contentOID=1074021673
One example says it all: 1986 saw the introduction of the Croma TDI, the first direct injection diesel engine in the world.

Since the initial sales launch only took place in Italy, it is possible that the Croma TD was actually only introduced in Germany in 1987 or 1988.

Quote:

Fiat introduced the Croma 1.9 dTi a year later.

Umgekehrt wird ein Schuh draus ....

Austin (Rover) Maestro stellte 1988 einen DI PKW vor, verkaufte ihn aber erst ab 1990. Dieser Motor war ein Abkömmling aus der Industrie Baureihe von Perkins. Verkaufszahlen zu dieser Fahrzeugvariante gibt es erst ab 1990. Damit sogar noch nach dem 1T von Audi ....

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Maestro#Engines
1990-1992 - 1994 cc Austin/Rover MDi - Perkins Prima NA I4, 62 hp (46 kW).
1992-1994 - 1994 cc Austin/Rover MDi engine - Perkins Prima TD I4, 81 hp (60 kW) at 4500 rpm and 116 lb·ft (157 N·m) at 2500 rpm

Lustigerweise gab es diese Autos als Prototypen sogar mit VW Motoren (Diesel und Benzin also wohl der 827) ......


Sollte jemand aber nach dem ersten PD DI Motor in einem PKW fragen, so ist das hier tatsächlich die Firma (Land)Rover.

[/quote]

Bertil wrote:

Kaum Verwunderlich, da der erste Croma 1900 Turbo D i.d. (so nannte er sich genau) ursprünglich mit Magneti Marelli Equippment ausgestattet war ...

Hi there,
ahhhja
This explains some inconsistencies, as according to Bosch, the ESP for the 1.9 D engine was not put into production until 1987. If Fiat had a different injection system before that, the information is misleading. The Bosch ESP is fully mechanical, but the previous equipment from Magneti Marelli apparently wasn't. It must have been quite bad if Fiat took a step backward.

Quote:

Since the initial sales launch took place only in Italy, it is possible that the Croma TD was actually only introduced in Germany in 1987 or 1988.

As far as I know, the 1.9 D i.D. has never been sold in Germany; until the mid-90s, Fiat only sold the old swirl chamber version there. They followed Mercedes' strategy with this, which, as is well known, turned out to be quite a failure .

Quote:

Austin (Rover) Maestro stellte 1988 einen DI PKW vor, verkaufte ihn aber erst ab 1990.

Wasn't this available in the UK before?
In 1989, Rover introduced the 200TDI engine in the Land Rover Discovery. This was a 2.5-liter, four-cylinder direct injection engine with Bosch ESP (fully mechanical). However, significant sales figures for this engine likely didn't begin until 1990.
So, it seems that the development of direct injection technology actually ran in parallel at quite a few car companies. However, Mercedes and PSA (as other major suppliers of diesel passenger cars) missed out on this trend. BMW wasn't as focused on diesel engines back then. And Ford/Opel didn't (or don't?) have their own diesel engine development.

Regards,
Jens.

Regards,
Jens[/b].

Jens 16syncro wrote:

... The Bosch ESP is fully mechanical, while the previous equipment from Magneti Marelli apparently was not.

The MM pump would also have had to be fully mechanical.

Quote:

It must have been quite bad if Fiat had to take a step back.

Was it ..... the smoothness of this engine's operation was roughly comparable to that of a [url=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rüttelplatte]vibrating plate[/url].
Initially, Bosch introduced a multi-port fuel injection system that helped to improve the engine's performance and behavior.

Quote:

As far as I know, the 1.9 D i.D. has never been sold in Germany; until the mid-90s, Fiat only sold the old swirl chamber version there. They followed Mercedes' strategy with this, which, as is well known, didn't go very well.

Not at all. The problem wasn't the engine itself, but rather the generally poor vehicle quality that Fiat was known for at that time.
The TD i.d. was also sold in Germany, but unlike its home market, it wasn't a success. While Italians overlooked the lack of smoothness in driving, this was an absolute deal-breaker for German customers.

From this disaster, Fiat learned a great deal and significantly advanced the development of diesel technology.
Wenig später kam man nämlich mit der nächsten Innovation: dem CR System. Damals eine Entwicklung von Magneti Marelli, dem Centro Ricerche Fiat und Elasis , basierend auf den Forschungen der ETH Zürich (1976 bis 1992). Bis 1994 hatte man das System zur Serienreife entwickelt (da kam VW gerade mal mit dem 1Z!). Aber erst 1997 brachte man das System in Zusammenarbeit mit Bosch(!) in einem Konzerntochter Fahrzeug Alfa auf den Markt. Scheinbar war wohl MM nicht in der Lage eine industrielle Fertigung der Komponenten in großer Stückzahl zu garantieren. JIn any case, this process is remarkable.
As far as I know, Bosch later even bought the patents for the common rail system.

Quote:

Quote: The Austin (Rover) Maestro introduced a diesel-powered car (DI) in 1988, but it wasn't sold until 1990. Wasn't this available in the UK before?

In 1990, sales in the UK were... The MDI was not offered in Germany. It wasn't until 1992 that the Turbo version became available.

Quote:

... So it seems that the development of direct injection technology actually ran in parallel at quite a few car companies. However, Mercedes and PSA (as other major suppliers of diesel passenger cars) missed out on this trend, and BMW wasn't as focused on diesel engines back then.

Mercedes and PSA actually only entered the diesel development field with the CR system in 1998.
In the mid-1990s, BMW produced a 2.5L engine that was also supplied to Opel (for the Omega). It was an incredibly unreliable engine.

Quote:

And Ford/Opel didn't (don't?) have their own diesel engine development.

Yes, but nothing significant.
Bei Ford UK gab es einen Nutzfahrzeug Motor für den Transit als DI Motor .... Laufruhe ähnlich dem Croma .....

Ford missed out on the development of diesel technology due to its focus on the American market, which favors gasoline engines.
At Opel, it was actually quite similar (due to GM), and as a result, Opel even had to deal with Japanese Isuzu engines for a long time. While there were some noteworthy in-house developments, these fortunately faded away around the turn of the millennium through the joint venture with Fiat. This brought the really good Fiat diesel engines to Rüsselsheim.
Ford was able to secure the French-made engines through a joint venture with PSA.


Indeed, many developments in the field of data integration were happening almost simultaneously.
This was also because not only the car manufacturers were involved in the development of the technology, but rather the suppliers. These companies need to actively market their products to generate profits. Therefore, they offered injection systems to other vehicle manufacturers as well. Mercedes was one of the first to take advantage of this and made the CR system "marketable" in Germany. So, at the time when the transition from VP (vanes pump) to CR (common rail) was most significant (although they weren't the first CR provider).

Mercedes already had a direct injection engine in 1996, specifically the E290 turbodiesel. It was known for its noisy operation when cold, like a tractor. However, it was more fuel-efficient than the later common rail engines.

schroederliese wrote:

Mercedes already had a direct injection engine in 1996. Specifically, the E290 turbodiesel. It was noisy when cold, like a tractor. However, it was more fuel-efficient than the common rail engines.

In 1996, Audi already had the 1T engine, but it had been around for a long time. In fact, it no longer existed in 1996 because by then it was called either AAT or AEL.

I only mentioned Bertil because he said that Mercedes 98 didn't have direct injection engines until the common rail models were introduced.

schroederliese wrote:

Hatte sich auch nur auf Bertil bezogen, da er meinte, daß Mercedes 98 erst mit den Common Rail Motoren Direkteinspritzer hatte.

Oh, I see.

schroederliese wrote:

Hatte sich auch nur auf Bertil bezogen, da er meinte, daß Mercedes 98 erst mit den Common Rail Motoren Direkteinspritzer hatte.

Was auch korrekt ist, da der E290 TD kein CR Motor war sondern ein "normaler" VP DI wie er damals schon länger gebräuchlich war.
It was equipped with a VE5/11E2000R642 injection pump (5 cylinders, 11mm pistons, electronic control, 2000 rpm, right-hand thread). So it's very similar to the VP37 used in VAG TDI engines.
The Audi 2.5L TDI engine used a VE5/11E2300L460 injection pump (5-cylinder, 11mm pistons, electronic control, 2300 rpm, left-hand thread).

CR (Collision Repair) technology was introduced in Mercedes-Benz vehicles starting in 1998.
Mercedes had proceeded very cautiously with the 290, and had waited due to the Mercedes' "atypical" smoothness of operation. All other diesel engines remained VK engines at Mercedes until 1998.

I know that the E290TD wasn't a common rail engine. But it was a direct injection (DI) engine. And that's what this thread is about: when each manufacturer introduced the first DI engines in passenger cars.

The 290 was also available as a naturally aspirated engine. Was that already a direct injection (DI) engine?