Chip tuning in conjunction with classic tuning

Is it generally true that it doesn't matter for the lifespan of the engine whether I achieve the desired horsepower through chip tuning alone, or in combination with traditional tuning methods (e.g., sports exhaust system, camshafts)?


'For example, some tuners offer to increase the power of a 115 hp PD engine to 165 hp (usually without any guarantees).'
'Another tuner offers the 165 hp performance only in conjunction with a sports exhaust system.' Sport cat on...

Is the second option better than the first?

'Thank you.'

Hello, it does matter where the power comes from. Reputable tuners specify between 140 and 145 horsepower for the AJM engine; exceeding this can damage the engine in the long run. If you want to achieve 165 horsepower with just a chip, you'll have to inject fuel for a very long time to reach that power, which isn't a good solution. However, an exhaust system can make it easier for the piston to complete its stroke, requiring less force, which could potentially mobilize a few more horsepower for propulsion without extending the injection time, thus preserving durability. The prerequisite is that the exhaust system is well-tuned to the engine. However, there are many exhaust systems designed for gasoline engines, which only deliver increased performance above 4500 RPM. But diesel engines don't typically operate at such high RPMs. However, with the right exhaust systems, you can achieve some gains, but not 10 or 15 horsepower.

Theoretically speaking, how does the performance characteristic change with modified camshafts, specifically for diesel engines? Is it similar to how gasoline engines have their power and torque figures achieved at higher RPMs than stock?

Reputable tuners?

So, the one with the sports exhaust, sports catalytic converter, and (sports ashtray-tuning fly swatter-lowered windshield wipers??).


It's certainly not very reputable; otherwise, he would know that it's ineffective, as has been described here on numerous occasions.

Sport exhaust systems and catalytic converters for diesel engines are a money pit. Camshafts for diesel engines? The valves are already sensitive to even the slightest timing discrepancy affecting the pistons, so what difference would other camshafts make?

For Bosch systems, exceeding a certain fuel injection amount can only be achieved by extending the injection duration or modifying the mechanics, such as using different injectors and plunger pumps in the VP37 system.

It gets even better with the Piezo system, which injects more fuel in shorter intervals, but it's not available for VAG vehicles yet.

It's also common among unreliable tuners to claim 5 horsepower more than their competitors. What matters is what reaches the (tire) rubber. Spend a little more for someone who has a dynamometer, and have them show you what it achieved, ideally without it smoking as if the car is on fire.

Then you'll know what you're paying for. If the 165 promises something, how will you determine if you're actually getting it?
And if someone manages to extract 20 horsepower more using the same methods as a reputable tuner who has years of proven experience and expertise, then I would definitely NOT let that person work on my car.

Otherwise: If you don't know what you're doing, and your exhaust tuner doesn't either, then just leave it alone! Because:

Getting a TDI repaired is something for people who have enough money to buy a Porsche in the first place.

Hi,

Please excuse me if I'm intruding here.

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So, the one with the sports exhaust, sports catalytic converter, (and a sports ashtray-tuning fly swatter-lowered windshield wipers??)

You forgot the "racing sticker"!

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For Bosch systems, exceeding a certain fuel injection amount can only be achieved by extending the injection duration or modifying the mechanics, such as using different injectors and plunger pumps in the VP37 system.

There's also the option of starting the injection. It's quite delicate, but with this, you can...
Achieve more power with relatively "clean" combustion. However, in this case, the goal is the measure.
Extreme changes are guaranteed to backfire or cause problems.

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Camshafts for a diesel engine? The valves are already sensitive to even the slightest timing discrepancy affecting the pistons, so what difference would other camshafts make?

You can modify the base circle to allow the hydraulic lifter to fill with more oil, which will push the valve open further. It's roughly equivalent to a slight increase in boost pressure.

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It is also observed that even with unreliable tuners, there is a tendency to always state 5 horsepower more than the others. It's important what reaches the (tire) rubber. Spend a little more for someone who has a testing stand, ...

A dynamometer reading is only as accurate as the estimate, and in my opinion, tuners aren't just adding 5 horsepower; they're likely adding more. For example, Wendland specifies that the tuning boxes are suitable for an AFN engine with 140 horsepower.
If there were 130, that would be a lot!
What average driver really knows the difference between 130 and 150 horsepower, or the specified Newton-meters of torque?

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... and let me show you what it has achieved, ideally without it smoking as if the car is on fire.

Here's the thing about the injection start timing. There's a lot of performance potential in this injection start timing map, and yet the car doesn't even produce a lot of soot. However, it's not good for the engine. What I mean is, the absence of soot and a dyno chart are not a guarantee of anything.

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Then you'll know what you paid for. If the 165 promises something, how will you determine if you actually receive it?

With the DZR from Ulf. It works perfectly and is an ideal reference point.
You can clearly see whether a tuning attempt was successful or not, and you don't have to put your car through the stress of being on a dynamometer.

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And if someone manages to extract 20 horsepower more using the same methods as a reputable tuner who has years of proven experience and expertise, then I would definitely NOT let that person work on my car.

For me, the words "tuner" and "serious" simply don't go together.
It's also not a given that "reputable tuners" have the best software.
Who decides which thunder is genuine and which is not? Where do you know which tuner?
"Did he test a motor on a dynamometer and develop software that determines whether a set of data is good or bad, or whether it simply adjusts the data using a rough estimate?"

It's also quite possible that some tuning enthusiasts might test a software program in your car 100 times and thoroughly explore its limits through defects, measurements, etc.
At 10Ct-Tuning, it's very similar.

Unfortunately, there is no simple formula for this.

Meaningful changes always go hand in hand with software modifications.
Basically, it means more boost pressure and more diesel.
It doesn't matter how it's achieved, but it's essential.

Greetings.
Thomas.

Hi, you're absolutely right that there's still a lot more to mention, but I'm not in the mood for a complete listing like 'wobbling dachshund sticker,' 'blonde,' 'fox tail,' etc.
Very important: the 500/10 R22 OZ rims - original Ferrari Formula tires on the rear axle of the Golf and Astra. Exhaust system with afterburner design (yes, someone is actually driving one of those!).

Okay, regarding the 'Seriös' (reputable) aspect, you never really know for sure, but the established businesses have more to lose than the smaller, less-known ones, and they likely have more experience due to a higher customer base.

But everything has been tried and tested by the tuners through trial and error, as they don't receive a 'tuning manual' from VAG.

Otherwise, it's like with regular workshops, it's a matter of luck.

I'm currently working on a post with a nearly endless 'Rep' story. I'm just waiting for the ending; the whole thing is still 'ongoing.'

Hello Garth,

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Hi, you're of course right that there's still a lot more, but I'm not in the mood for a complete listing like "sticker, wobbly dachshund, blonde, fox tail"..... Very important: the 500/10 R22 OZ rims - original Ferrari Formula tires on the rear axle of the Golf and Astra... Exhaust system with afterburner design (yes, someone is actually driving one of those!).

I just wanted to express that we speak the same language...

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Regarding the matter of "seriousness," okay, you never really know for sure, but the acquaintances have more to lose than the "backbenchers," and, due to (presumably) a larger customer base, they also have more experience. But everything has been tried and tested through trial and error by the tuners, as they don't receive a "tuning manual" from VAG. Otherwise, it's like with regular workshops, it's a matter of luck.

That's exactly what I claim is the opposite. Tuners often have little knowledge of cars themselves, but only know how to install a chip, or even two, into a control unit.
What happens next doesn't matter to them. Where are customers supposed to know where the chips or the software on their hard drive come from?

More experience in what? Cars or "politics"?

If you want to purchase individual tuning maps from a tuner that performs tests and develops software, go ahead. They are incredibly expensive, and then you have to consider the cost of all the engines and all the individual tuning parameters.

While it's probably still cheaper than running all the engines on a test bench yourself, thankfully there are other ways and means available...

But one thing is certain. The risk is (almost) everywhere.

Greetings.
Thomas.

Hello Thomas,

We're not that far apart when it comes to the topic of tuners either. There are definitely some who know what they're doing electronically, but there aren't many of them, and they're expensive!

You always run the risk of something breaking down, because a certain percentage of engines fail prematurely even without any modifications. This percentage increases with the amount of stress placed on the vehicle, whether it's from constant high-speed driving, towing, modifications, or a combination of all of these.
Campervan drivers generally advise against tuning VAG engines because even with the standard power output, it's possible to damage the engine over time. This is because no other vehicle allows you to drive at full throttle for extended periods.

Just like with workshops, you can't generalize about all of them, but if you always suspect the worst, you're usually closer to the truth in this case than if you're overly trusting.

It's also possible that some of the chips came from the people who programmed the original identification fields – but can we be sure?

Some tuners, such as *** and AMG, also have access to the manufacturer's data of the engine control unit (ECU).

Tuning shops that offer vehicle modifications will usually state that on their website.

On the other hand, I also installed a chip from eBay and made the rest of the adjustments using the lambda sensor, ESP, etc. It also works! But then I wouldn't need a tuner anymore, and I can do the tinkering myself.
'The test stand is my standard measurement setup, using a VAG-Com device and a stopwatch.'

If Audi states 8.8 seconds for the 0-100 km/h acceleration of the 1.8 T with a manual transmission, and my AFN automatic manages it in around 9.5 seconds, then I'm quite satisfied with that.

Hi Garth,

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You always have the risk, because a certain percentage of engines will fail prematurely even without tuning. This proportion increases with the demands placed on the vehicle, whether it's through constant high-speed driving, towing, modifications, or a combination of all of these. Among motorhome drivers, it is generally advised against tuning VAG engines because even with the standard power output, it's possible to damage the engine over time. This is because no other vehicle allows you to drive at full throttle for extended periods.

While better cooling can compensate for some of it, the thermal overload remains. There's no question about that. For me, the tuning isn't really intended for long distances at high speed, but rather for short bursts of acceleration. Overtaking, accelerating in the acceleration lane, etc.

I drove the W. software in K. for 30,000 km without any defects. There were no problems. This included some stretches where I reached the maximum speed, but never for longer than 5 minutes. In the last month, I moved and have therefore been driving on the A5 more frequently. Driven on the A6, which also offers longer, unlimited sections of highway.
A few times running the engine at higher RPMs and maximum speed, and the turbo is gone. Now, I have to be fair and say that the turbo was used, bought from eBay, and had approximately 45,000 km on it. It cost around 60 euros, and it was one of the early GT1749V models. Well, it's not particularly surprising, but that's what happens with full load and wear and tear.

I have also removed that tuning software from my car. I'm not using that anymore.

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Just like with workshops, you can't judge all of them the same way, but if you always suspect the worst, you are usually closer to the truth in this case than if you are overly trusting.

I'm afraid I have to admit that I'm guilty here, because I definitely am.
My choice fell on the tuner W. in K., and then I had to face reality.
For a moment, I was annoyed that I hadn't driven all the way to T. in G., Austria, but well... who drives halfway around the world for a few horsepower? But before I got too upset, I thought, "Why don't you look into this tuner?" The result was shocking! Before deciding to go from W. to K., I consulted with some other tuners, and they actually tried to outdo each other with ridiculous stories.

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Tuners who offer vehicle modifications state that on their website.

What do you mean by that? Custom tuning for the engine?

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On the other hand, I also installed a chip from eBay and made the rest of the adjustments using the lambda sensor, ESP, etc. It also works! But then I won't need a tuner anymore, I can do the tweaking myself. "Dyno mode is my standard measurement method, using VAG-Com and a stopwatch."

That's exactly what I mean. You don't need to spend 1000 euros for that.
With that, your test bench is at least as accurate as a in-house roller test bench with a wind tunnel brake!

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If Audi states that the 1.8 T with a manual transmission takes 8.8 seconds to accelerate from 0-100 km/h, and my AFN automatic version achieves it in around 9.5 seconds, then I am quite satisfied with that.

Try using the DZR (Dynamic Resonance Zone) instead. It's less stressful than the 0-100 sprint. I've done something similar before, but the clutch, gearbox, and the drive shaft probably won't appreciate it.

In which car is the AFN engine installed? A4?

Greetings.
Thomas.

Car is listed in my last line - A4 AVANT.

The automatic transmission isn't the problem for me; when I floor the accelerator at 2000 RPM, that stupid thing shifts.

You can't accelerate quickly from a standstill because it just makes a lot of noise and doesn't move much as long as it's in first gear.
That's why I always do at least 3 sessions, because it's very dependent on the ASR in my right foot.

But my clutch isn't saying anything, I don't have one. (Except for the WK). And I don't do this every day.

Gearbox AG4 = A right-handGearbox with 4 speeds).
ArGer 4-fold.

But otherwise, I love the automatic transmission, especially in a powerful diesel engine.

Hi,

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Car is in my last line - A4 AVANT.

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But my clutch doesn't say anything, I don't have one. (except for the WK). And I don't do that every day.

It's silly to have tomatoes on your eyes...

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Accelerating quickly is also not possible, because there's only a lot of squealing and no movement as long as it's in 1st gear. That's why I always do at least 3 sessions, because it's very dependent on the ASR in my right foot.

Then you'll just have to adjust the DZR accordingly *g*.
Just kidding. Is the first gear in the automatic transmission so short that the wheels slip?

This didn't even happen to me in the Opel Omega MV6, which had 211 horsepower and 270 Nm of torque.

Greetings.
Thomas.

@Thomas:

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This didn't even happen to me in a powerful Opel Omega MV6 with 211 horsepower and 270 Nm of torque.

It's also a vehicle with rear-wheel drive, where the drive axle is subjected to greater stress due to the dynamic shift in axle load. In the case of the A4, the front axle, which is the drive axle, is significantly relieved during acceleration.

Did the MV6 have an automatic transmission or a manual transmission?

The converter, furthermore, increases the torque as long as there is slip, thus supporting slip at the drive wheels .

If I'm not mistaken, the Omaga MV6 is also a gasoline engine, which nominally has 270 Nm of torque, but at what RPM? You definitely have to push it to over 2500 RPM to achieve that torque.

Regards,
Alex.

Hi,

It was an automatic gasoline engine with rear-wheel drive, and I don't think 2500 RPM will be enough in that case.

But I didn't want to portray the A4 in a negative light either. Quite the opposite.
I'm surprised that it has this effect. I'm always fascinated by how much power is packed into a diesel engine.

Greetings.
Thomas.