1.6 TDI: No dual-mass flywheel with start-stop function

Hello everyone,

Could someone possibly explain to me why my 1.6 TDI BlueMotion (Golf 6 variant) with a start-stop function has a single-mass flywheel?

I thought two flywheels were necessary due to the recoil force and to protect the transmission from vibrations?

It would be very helpful if someone could give me a little more information.

Thank you very much.

Best regards,

BB

Hi, are you sure your Golf actually has a single-mass flywheel? I've replaced quite a few 1.6 TDI clutches, and so far, I haven't seen a single one with a solid flywheel. Maybe the previous owner already replaced the clutch? For this motor, Valeo offers a 4-component kit that includes a rigid flywheel.

Best regards,
Hannes

Hello,

I was unable to find a replacement dual-mass flywheel for the 2011 model with the start-stop system.

I read somewhere else on the internet that the 1.6 TDI engine is sometimes manufactured without a dual-mass flywheel (DMF).

Therefore, my question is whether someone can clarify this. If in doubt, I can also provide the VIN so that it can be checked.

Best regards,

BB

https://volkswagen.7zap.com/en/rdw/golf+variant+4motion/golf/2011-684/1/105-105026/#7

Here, it is visible that this is the flywheel with part number 03L 105 269.
This pressure plate 03L 141 025 Q and this clutch disc 03L 141 032 A.

I'm curious how VW managed to do it, to eliminate the dual-mass flywheel (ZMS) in that application. Forget about vibrations and such.

It becomes interesting when you consider that with the software update, VW is injecting more fuel, which significantly changes the vibrations.

If the vehicle doesn't have a torsional vibration damper (TVD), what happens to the crankshaft and transmission?

Best regards,

BB

"Hi, I'm really surprised. I've replaced so many clutches on 1.6 TDI engines, and not a single one had a single-mass flywheel installed from the factory. You never stop learning. According to my parts supplier and the vehicle data you provided, this single-mass flywheel actually exists (manufactured from 12/2010 onwards, part number 03L 105 269)." Have you already removed the transmission, or do you have the flywheel in front of you?

Best regards,
Hannes

No, I haven't.

A friend of mine has a 2010 Octavia where the 5th and 4th gears are starting to make a grinding noise, and since this weekend, unpleasant noises have been occurring when the clutch is partially depressed.

"Then I thought, let's take a look and see what's wrong with the car." And lo, no ZMS.

What further reinforces my decision to delay the VW software update (related to the emissions scandal, etc.) for as long as possible.

I expect only negative consequences in my specific case.
I would rather install a BNOx system or something similar at my own expense.

Best regards,

BB

Sure, here's the translation:

"PS:"

Thank you for confirming that I'm not mistaken.

At 1500 RPM, 5° KW corresponds to approximately 0.5 milliseconds. The distance between the injections is determined in this area.
I don't believe that a vibration isolation system is designed or needs to be designed for decoupling in the corresponding frequency range of 2 kHz. Because of the multiple injection system or its modifications, a dual-mass flywheel (ZMS) is not necessary.
It's simply about the comfort and the noise reduction at lower speeds.
Be glad that you don't have one.
hg
Herbert.

Hi,

I'm a bit surprised that there's a series without TMS.

Faulty dual-mass flywheels can be quite expensive, and if they are not replaced in time, they can lead to costly consequential damage.

It's also interesting that you can't find any information online explaining why and how the ZMS (presumably a component or feature) was removed from that model. I can't complain about the lack of comfort.

Okay, a comparison would be between a Suzuki LJ 80, a Mercedes-Benz W124 T-model, and an Audi 80 B3.

So, basically, they're all quite old cars.

I'd be happy to have one less thing that can break.

Best regards,

BB

And an Audi 80 B4 with a 1Z engine, no dual-mass flywheel (ZMS), but with 470,000 km (approximately 290,000 miles) on the odometer.

Herbert.

The 1Z engine was also a really robust and reliable motor.

Nowadays, cars aren't supposed to last as long as they used to. They all want to earn more than they used to.

"I bought the b3 with the pm engine (gasoline) 6 years ago because of the green sticker."

Starting next year, there will likely be a blue model that will no longer be eligible for the PM (presumably a government subsidy) due to Euro 2 regulations.

Thank you, German politics.

Sincerely,

BB

Interesting observation. The absence of a ZMS (torque converter) in the start-stop system would explain why the Audi A2 1.2 TDI is the only TDI engine in the A2 model that doesn't have a ZMS.
However, start-stop technology is now standard, and all current models have a dual-mass flywheel (DMF).
Most likely, they didn't want to undertake any experiments that would have put too much strain on the customer service department.

However, it's always said that the dual-mass flywheel (DMF) is necessary to prevent transmission damage and to ensure the car runs smoothly.

And what about 144,400 km and no damage to the transmission?

So, what are they doing there? Is a central management system necessary? Luxury or what?

I'm starting to believe that it's more about having an expensive component that needs to be replaced every 150,000 km at the very least. Or, indeed, earlier.

Who can provide clarification here?

Okay, I'm having trouble following your explanation. There are certainly areas where vibration decoupling makes sense. Since the 1.6-liter engine isn't really a powerhouse and isn't worth talking about in the lowest RPM range, it might be applicable in that case. Perhaps forgo it.

But please don't use such ridiculous, blanket statements about shelf life. Nobody here needs that.

matthiasTDI96 wrote:

So, I can't follow your reasoning. There are certainly areas where vibration decoupling makes sense. Since the 1.6 engine isn't really a powerhouse and isn't worth talking about in the lowest RPM range, it could. Perhaps forgo it.

That sounds perfectly logical. The question is, why do some 1.6 TDI engines without start-stop have a dual-mass flywheel (DMF), while others with start-stop don't? The same applies to the 1.2 TDI. I'm also puzzled as to why some of them have a DMF for smoother running, while others don't. I even have the feeling that the 1.4 TDI engine with a dual-mass flywheel runs rougher.

Well.

Looking around online, one realizes that it's widely believed that a central management system (ZMS) is essential, and that switching to rigid systems is absolutely not an option, as it could lead to various negative consequences.

Then you find out that it was working from the factory after all?

One starts to wonder what the point of all this complexity is, considering how often a dual-mass flywheel (ZMS) needs to be replaced.

A colleague used to have a 1.6 Skoda Octavia Estate. It had 120,000 km on the clock when the dual-mass flywheel (DMF) failed and needed to be replaced.

Then a Passat with 125,000 km mileage, 2.0 engine. ZMS failure.

And if you listen around, you'll find that the dual-mass flywheel (DMF) is a heavily stressed component. (Actually, are there any components in today's diesel engines that *aren't* heavily stressed?) During our studies, we used to design components to be "permanently durable," meaning they were designed to last, but with the expectation that they would need to be replaced every 150,000 km.

I don't want to make any generalizations here.
If someone says, "OK." ZMS is only worth it because of the driving comfort. You can convert to a rigid system, and nothing will break, which is fine and makes sense.

If someone claims that a dual-mass flywheel (DMF) is needed for the comfort and durability of the components, then the statement about durability cannot be correct, since the car in question does not have a DMF from the factory.


Or perhaps VW simply didn't care, and soon my transmission or something else behind the non-existent dual-mass flywheel will break.


I would just like to know what's going on. The VW service center around the corner, which performed the mandatory software update (we hope nothing breaks as a result), was completely unable to provide any information about it.

I suspect that to get reliable information on that topic, you would need to contact the engineers at Volkswagen directly.
Or, as is often the case here in this community, which is usually very well-informed.

Therefore, I am still requesting clarification regarding the reasons for the absence of a central management system.

Thank you very much.

BB

Hello,

Possible reason why an EMS (Engine Management System) might be less problematic with certain engines: The more uniform the acceleration of the crankshaft during the combustion process, the less torsional stress on the crankshaft and the entire drivetrain.
A motor that produces only a small amount of torque and distributes it over a relatively large crankshaft angle during combustion, using relatively small injectors, will experience fewer problems compared to, for example, a 2.0 TDI engine with 450 Nm of torque and 204 horsepower.

Example: 450 Nm of torque and combustion occurring within a 30° crank angle results in less torsional stress/vibration than 195 Nm at 35°.

The °KW numbers in the example are arbitrary, but the logic dictates that the higher the maximum power a motor can produce, the larger the corresponding injector or fuel nozzle must be, and the more intense the KW acceleration will be during the combustion process.
The larger the injector or fuel nozzle, the smaller the engine speed range at which it injects fuel for a given target torque. That is to say, with the same amount of engine torque output, larger injectors/fuel injectors increase the torsional stress/vibration stress on the powertrain.

The initially mentioned 1.6 TDI engine will likely have less power or smaller injectors, which means the torsional stress/vibration load on the drivetrain can still be managed with an EMS (Engine Management System).

Best regards, Rainer.